What Makes a Christian a Christian - Does Anyone Know?

Exploring the details of Christianity

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William
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What Makes a Christian a Christian - Does Anyone Know?

Post #1

Post by William »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:06 am
William wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:19 am [Replying to Tcg in post #760]
In any case it wasn't some rebellion against God as some theists may be likely to presume.
IF they call themselves "Christian" THEN it is safe to say that they will presume exactly that.

All of them or just Some?
Q: All of them or just Some?

This is a question which appears to have no answer which can be agreed to.

QFD: Does that make the question itself, rhetorical?

Rhetorical = Along the lines of - "a question asked in order to create a dramatic effect or to make a point rather than to get an answer."

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Re: What Makes a Christian a Christian - Does Anyone Know?

Post #71

Post by Miles »

onewithhim wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:26 am [Replying to Miles in post #68]

I gave you an example of what "creating evil" means in regard to Jehovah, when I cited Deuteronomy. It shows exactly what it means. If you don't get it, that's ok. We just agree to disagree.
As stated in my request, I'm looking for the chapter and verse in the bible that says "the evil in 'creating evil' means unpleasantness and hard times." You know, Bible verses like Genesis 7:30, 2 Peter 3:19-21, and Ecclesiastes 5:24----I'm assuming you didn't simply make it up.


I don't understand what you want with your #2.
In post 61 you said:

"That is what "creating evil" means. Evil , in this sense = unpleasantness and hard times."

Fine, that's what "creating evil" means in this particular sense, but what I want to know is what it means in the other senses you're implying exist.


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Re: What Makes a Christian a Christian - Does Anyone Know?

Post #72

Post by onewithhim »

William wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:40 pm [Replying to onewithhim in post #69]



Deuteronomy 28:1
“And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:”


To this day humans have seen no such evidence of any individual, culture, nation, [et al] being "set on high above all nations of the earth", so are we to take from that, that this is not what makes a Christian and Christian?

Rather, is a Christian someone who believes in a future event becoming true, in the idea that biblical Jesus will eventually be the one who will prove to be "set on high above all nations of the earth" once he is given permission to return and take his place re that position?
Yes.

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Re: What Makes a Christian a Christian - Does Anyone Know?

Post #73

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to Miles in post #71]

In other senses, such as the evil perpetrated by individuals that are looking to take advantage of others, the evil is created by them specifically for the damaging in some way of other people. Jehovah does not do this. He very much wants to have good relationships with all of his human creations, and it is sad to Him to leave them to their own devices (which is what they choose to do).

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Re: What Makes a Christian a Christian - Does Anyone Know?

Post #74

Post by William »

[Replying to onewithhim in post #72]
Is a Christian someone who believes in a future event becoming true, in the idea that biblical Jesus will eventually be the one who will prove to be "set on high above all nations of the earth" once he is given permission to return and take his place re that position?
Yes.
Thus it can be ascertained that in the mean time, while awaiting The Father giving permission to The Son to take up that position, Christians are not expected to "hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD God, or to observe and to do all his commandments?

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Re: What Makes a Christian a Christian - Does Anyone Know?

Post #75

Post by Miles »

.

Okay, there is no Biblical evidence supporting your claim that "the evil in 'creating evil' means unpleasantness and hard times." It's just something you made up.

onewithhim wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:46 am [Replying to Miles in post #71]

In other senses, such as the evil perpetrated by individuals that are looking to take advantage of others, the evil is created by them specifically for the damaging in some way of other people. Jehovah does not do this. He very much wants to have good relationships with all of his human creations, and it is sad to Him to leave them to their own devices (which is what they choose to do).
But in Isaiah 45:7: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things," god doesn't qualify the "evil" he creates. He doesn't say he creates some evil, or a bit of evil, or a lot of evil. In effect he says he creates all evil; that if it wasn't for what he creates evil would not exist. And this exclusive responsibility is supported by his prior remark about forming the light, and creating darkness. It doesn't say "I sometimes form the light, and occasionally create darkness:" because the claim would hardly be noteworthy. It would be so unimportant that it would be better left unsaid---who cares that he sometimes does these things? However, what would be Biblically noteworthy is if he is the exclusive reason for existence for light, darkness, peace, and evil. Hence: "I . . . create evil:

So, there are no others creating evil as in: " . . . the evil is created by them . . . . "








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Re: What Makes a Christian a Christian - Does Anyone Know?

Post #76

Post by William »

[Replying to Miles in post #75]

Yes. It would have been better for general Christianity to have stuck with that idea than trying to incorperate the idea that another being [Satan] creates evil while the god they are backing [Not Satan] creates good.

Unfortunately the 'New Testament' religion couldn't conceal the Hebrew idea that there is only actually one God - and that God is responsible for both good acts and evil acts.

But Christianity says "Clearly Satan exists and does the evil" because there are references in the Hebrew Canon which support this idea, so the only practical thing to do, in order to make these two seemingly opposite/contradicting views match, is to understand of Satan as the means/medium through which evil can be done by God.

Sort of like Satan is a type of personification of the evil that God does - a glove-puppet or alter-ego of God, through enabling God to perform evil under a pseudoism.

Even so - it does raise questions...

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Re: What Makes a Christian a Christian - Does Anyone Know?

Post #77

Post by onewithhim »

Miles wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:02 pm .

Okay, there is no Biblical evidence supporting your claim that "the evil in 'creating evil' means unpleasantness and hard times." It's just something you made up.

onewithhim wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:46 am [Replying to Miles in post #71]

In other senses, such as the evil perpetrated by individuals that are looking to take advantage of others, the evil is created by them specifically for the damaging in some way of other people. Jehovah does not do this. He very much wants to have good relationships with all of his human creations, and it is sad to Him to leave them to their own devices (which is what they choose to do).
But in Isaiah 45:7: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things," god doesn't qualify the "evil" he creates. He doesn't say he creates some evil, or a bit of evil, or a lot of evil. In effect he says he creates all evil; that if it wasn't for what he creates evil would not exist. And this exclusive responsibility is supported by his prior remark about forming the light, and creating darkness. It doesn't say "I sometimes form the light, and occasionally create darkness:" because the claim would hardly be noteworthy. It would be so unimportant that it would be better left unsaid---who cares that he sometimes does these things? However, what would be Biblically noteworthy is if he is the exclusive reason for existence for light, darkness, peace, and evil. Hence: "I . . . create evil:

So, there are no others creating evil as in: " . . . the evil is created by them . . . . "








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You are so hung up on the word "evil." That was the word of choice for the King James translators and others. Another translator chose the word "calamity." Jehovah "creates" calamity by allowing hard times to come upon the people because they chose to rebel against Him.

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Re: What Makes a Christian a Christian - Does Anyone Know?

Post #78

Post by Miles »

onewithhim wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:49 pm
Miles wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:02 pm .

Okay, there is no Biblical evidence supporting your claim that "the evil in 'creating evil' means unpleasantness and hard times." It's just something you made up.

onewithhim wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:46 am [Replying to Miles in post #71]

In other senses, such as the evil perpetrated by individuals that are looking to take advantage of others, the evil is created by them specifically for the damaging in some way of other people. Jehovah does not do this. He very much wants to have good relationships with all of his human creations, and it is sad to Him to leave them to their own devices (which is what they choose to do).
But in Isaiah 45:7: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things," god doesn't qualify the "evil" he creates. He doesn't say he creates some evil, or a bit of evil, or a lot of evil. In effect he says he creates all evil; that if it wasn't for what he creates evil would not exist. And this exclusive responsibility is supported by his prior remark about forming the light, and creating darkness. It doesn't say "I sometimes form the light, and occasionally create darkness:" because the claim would hardly be noteworthy. It would be so unimportant that it would be better left unsaid---who cares that he sometimes does these things? However, what would be Biblically noteworthy is if he is the exclusive reason for existence for light, darkness, peace, and evil. Hence: "I . . . create evil:

So, there are no others creating evil as in: " . . . the evil is created by them . . . . "

You are so hung up on the word "evil." That was the word of choice for the King James translators and others. Another translator chose the word "calamity." Jehovah "creates" calamity by allowing hard times to come upon the people because they chose to rebel against Him.
I'm "hung up" on the word "evil" because by far it is the most frequent translation of the word רַע ( raʿ) in Isaiah 45:7. Out of 66 Bibles surveyed only 8 (12%) translate רַע as "calamity," which is a pretty miserable showing if you ask me. In all, 88% of the Bibles disagree with JW's translation,


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Re: What Makes a Christian a Christian - Does Anyone Know?

Post #79

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to Miles in post #78]

OK. Be that as it may, I think that there are more important things to consider than quibbling about what "creating evil" means. Anyone who respects the Bible will concede that Jehovah does not create terrible things. There is a distinct difference between, for example, Satan's evil and Jehovah's allowing evil. But more importantly:

Did Jesus actually exist, and was he what the Bible says he was? Is the Bible to be respected as the inspired Word of God?

If your answer is no, then we have nothing further to discuss.

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Re: What Makes a Christian a Christian - Does Anyone Know?

Post #80

Post by Miles »

onewithhim wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:04 pm [Replying to Miles in post #78]

OK. Be that as it may, I think that there are more important things to consider than quibbling about what "creating evil" means. Anyone who respects the Bible will concede that Jehovah does not create terrible things. There is a distinct difference between, for example, Satan's evil and Jehovah's allowing evil. But more importantly:

Did Jesus actually exist, and was he what the Bible says he was? Is the Bible to be respected as the inspired Word of God?

If your answer is no, then we have nothing further to discuss.

Just change the subject, huh. No thanks.




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