"The Best Person To Rape Is Your Wife"

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"The Best Person To Rape Is Your Wife"

Post #1

Post by Miles »

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"In a now-deleted sermon video, Dr. Burnett L, Robinson, the senior pastor at Grand Concourse Seventh-day Adventist Church in the Bronx (New York), told men that it was acceptable to rape their wives because women were commanded to submit to their husbands.

At least one person got a clip of that sermon before the church tries to remove it:


.......................................................................................

. . .Wives, you must submit yourselves to your husbands as unto the Lord. And in this matter of submission, I want you to know up front, ladies, that once you get married, you are no longer your own. You are your husband's. You understand what I'm saying about you?

And I emphasize that, because I saw, in court the other day on TV, where a lady sued her husband for rape. And I would say to you, gentlemen, the best person to rape is your wife.

But then, now it has become legalized---rape. I don't understand, "oh, you belong to somebody," and they are . . . all right . .


(I don't understand the last lines without more context.)
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This Christian rule isn't unique to this church, Seventh-day Adventists in general, or this pastor. It's the sort of thing white evangelicals have been preaching for a while now, as noted by Religion News Service:

The passage [from Ephesians] made news headlines back in in 1998 when the Southern Baptist Convention, the nation's largest Protestant denomination, amended its statement of faith to include a declaration that a woman should "submit herself graciously" to her husband's leadership"
source


Now this is no small Christian sect or cult, but an honest to god 21+ million member Christian religion the good Rev. Robinson represents.

So, considering the Southern Baptist Convention's regard of females, and apparently now the Seventh-day Adventists view of wives being quite rape-able, is this an upcoming trend in Christian morality? "Come here woman. You is about to get raped." Is it yours?


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Re: "The Best Person To Rape Is Your Wife"

Post #11

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:22 pm
Miles wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:27 pm
1 Timothy 2:11
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.


What has the above got to do with a man having authority to RAPE (harm) his wife?
Harm? Even if you consider such behavior harmful it's clear that god does not because he permits it---"Wives, submit to your own husbands"---Or is this another instance where god is just fine with abusing innocent people?


1 Timothy 2:11
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

and

Ephesians 5:22-24
22 Wives, be willing to serve your husbands the same as the Lord. 23 A husband is the head of his wife, just as Christ is the head of the church. Christ is the Savior of the church, which is his body. 24 The church serves under Christ, so it is the same with you wives. You should be willing to serve your husbands in everything.


So whether it's scrubbing floors because that's what your husband wants or submitting to his unbridled sexual lust because that's what your husband wants, god says that's what you have to do. Of course I don't agree with such hideous behavior, but god does, in fact, he gives it a thumbs-up. Why? Because in his view man is superior to woman.

1 Corinthians 11:3:
But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

It doesn't even address men.
Then whom do you think the subject of the verse refers to if it isn't the husband (men)?



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Re: "The Best Person To Rape Is Your Wife"

Post #12

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:27 pm
1 Timothy 2:11
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
Miles wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:21 am
It doesn't even address men.
Then whom do you think the subject of the verse refers to if it isn't the husband (men)?

The subject of the verse is woman . It is telling the women to be "silent" (contextually in religious meetings), not telling (or giving permission to) husbands to rape or abuse their wives. It doesnt even mention or even allude to how husbands should or should not treat their wives. Your argument is like saying a rule for Canadian drivers tells us how Australians should treat Canadians.


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Re: "The Best Person To Rape Is Your Wife"

Post #13

Post by Tcg »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:31 am
Miles wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:27 pm
1 Timothy 2:11
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
Miles wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:21 am
It doesn't even address men.
Then whom do you think the subject of the verse refers to if it isn't the husband (men)?

The subject of the verse is woman . It is telling the women to be "silent" (contextually in religious meetings), not telling (or giving permission to) husbands to rape or abuse their wives. It doesnt even mention or even allude to how husbands should or should not treat their wives. Your argument is like saying a rule for Canadian drivers tells us how Australians should treat Canadians.


JW
Nope. It's telling how the Bible suggests husbands and others should treat women.


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Re: "The Best Person To Rape Is Your Wife"

Post #14

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:31 am
Miles wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:27 pm
1 Timothy 2:11
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
Miles wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:21 am
It doesn't even address men.
Then whom do you think the subject of the verse refers to if it isn't the husband (men)?

The subject of the verse is woman .
I was thinking more in terms of the subject and object of the sentence in English grammar. "The subject is the person or thing doing something": the husband making the wife obey him.

It is telling the women to be "silent" (contextually in religious meetings), not telling (or giving permission to) husbands to rape or abuse their wives.

Really. Ephesians 5:24 says much differently:

". . . You should be willing to serve your husbands in everything."

And I know you're bright enough not to need "everything"explained to you; that it brooks no qualification.


It doesnt even mention or even allude to how husbands should or should not treat their wives. Your argument is like saying a rule for Canadian drivers tells us how Australians should treat Canadians.
So when god says "Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands." (Eph.5:24 ESV) just who do you think is making the demands the wife is to submit to, her mother-in-law?


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Re: "The Best Person To Rape Is Your Wife"

Post #15

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:27 pm
1 Timothy 2:11
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
Miles wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:40 am I was thinking more in terms of the subject and object of the sentence in English grammar.

The verb in the sentence is TO LEARN. The subject of the sentence (ie who is doing the learning ) is the woman. The direct object would be whatever she learns. So, if she learns a scripture, then "the scripture" (not her husband) is the object.

The expression "with all subjection" acts as an adverbial (ie in what manner is the verb carried out = "learn submisively"). The word for example, "slowly" in a directive to "Eat slowly" does not require we know how or why the speed might be relevant; our only information is that there is restriction. That the woman is directed to learn "with all subjection" only conveys the restriction on the manner of her learning, it does not introduce that restriction as the object of the verb.

The context indicate she is subject herself to church authority but even if we concude it to be to her husband's authority that would be a interpretaional point not a grammatical one. In other words that she learn in a manner that show regard for her husband's authority; not that she learn her husband. In short there is no way to make her husband the object of the sentence without resorting to nonsense grammar.
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "The Best Person To Rape Is Your Wife"

Post #16

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:40 am
It is telling the women to be "silent" (contextually in religious meetings), not telling (or giving permission to) husbands to rape or abuse their wives.
Really. Ephesians 5:24 says much differently:
". . . You should be willing to serve your husbands in everything."
Where does this verse mention what husbands have the right to do? If a woman is told she should eat everything her husband cooks, how does that address whether the husband has the right to serve her poison? The only way to establish if such a directive is safe for wives is to find what scripture has to say directly to husbands.



JW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "The Best Person To Rape Is Your Wife"

Post #17

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:21 pm
Miles wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:27 pm
1 Timothy 2:11
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
Miles wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:40 am I was thinking more in terms of the subject and object of the sentence in English grammar.

The verb in the sentence is TO LEARN. The subject of the sentence (ie who is doing the learning ) is the woman. The direct object would be whatever she learns. So, if she learns a scripture, then "the scripture" (not her husband) is the object.

The expression "with all subjection" acts as an adverbial (ie in what manner is the verb carried out = "learn submisively"). The word for example, "slowly" in a directive to "Eat slowly" does not require we know how or why the speed might be relevant; our only information is that there is restriction. That the woman is directed to learn "with all subjection" only conveys the restriction on the manner of her learning, it does not introduce that restriction as the object of the verb.

The context indicate she is subject herself to church authority but even if we concude it to be to her husband's authority that would be a interpretaional point not a grammatical one. In other words that she learn in a manner that show regard for her husband's authority; not that she learn her husband. In short there is no way to make her husband the object of the sentence without reporting to nonsense grammar.
I yield to your analysis; however, the greater question still remains.

"So when god says 'Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.' (Eph.5:24 ESV) just who do you think is making the demands the wife is to submit to, her mother-in-law?"




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Re: "The Best Person To Rape Is Your Wife"

Post #18

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:42 pm
"So when god says 'Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.' (Eph.5:24 ESV) just who do you think is making the demands the wife is to submit to, her mother-in-law?"


As the verse says wives should submit to their husbands. Where, however, does that give permission to the husbands to rape her? She should indeed submit to Her husband in "everything"* but where do you get the idea the husband can do ANYTHING?

Can you not see there is a difference between "You can eat everything on the menu" and ..."We can serve you anything we like"?

Image

How often would you eat out if you didn't think there was a difference between the two ?

" All you [the customer] can eat!" is NOT permission for them [the restaurant owners] to cook and serve everything that exists including EXCREMENT or poison. In the same way an instruction for wives to submit in everything does not equate to permission for husbands to submit them to everything that exists including rape, abuse or murder!


Logic and Language,


JW



*all Christian submission is in fact relative.
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:22 am, edited 10 times in total.
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Re: "The Best Person To Rape Is Your Wife"

Post #19

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:49 pm
Miles wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:42 pm
"So when god says 'Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.' (Eph.5:24 ESV) just who do you think is making the demands the wife is to submit to, her mother-in-law?"


As the verse says wives should submit to their husbands. Where, however, does that give permission to the husbands to rape her? She should indeed submit to Her husband in "everything"* but where do you get the idea the husband can do ANYTHING?
Not "do ANYTHING," but submit her to or, subject her to in EVERYTHING, just as the Bible says:

Ephesians 5:24

AMP
But as the church is subject to Christ, so also wives should be subject to their husbands in everything

LEB
24 But as the church is subject to Christ, thus also wives should be subject to their husbands in everything.

CSB
Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives are to submit to their husbands in everything.

CJB
Just as the Messianic Community submits to the Messiah, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

EHV
Moreover, as the church submits to Christ, so also wives are to submit to their husbands in everything.

ESV
Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.

etc.

etc.

Can you not see there is a difference between "You can eat everything on the menu" and ..."We can serve you anything we like"? How often would you eat out if you didn't think there was a difference betwesn the two things?
While the first here speaks to option, Ephesians 5:24 does not. The woman has no option but to submit to or be subject to her husband.


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Re: "The Best Person To Rape Is Your Wife"

Post #20

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:55 am
...subject her to in EVERYTHING, just as the Bible says:
Husband are to "subject their wives TO-IN everything" that isn't even english!

One subjects to something OR in something, ... but in the ENGLISH language we do not use two different propositions (to and in) together with the verb "subject. If you told someone to subject "to - in" the government for example, they would not know what you mean.

Perhaps you could rephrase.




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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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