"The Best Person To Rape Is Your Wife"

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"The Best Person To Rape Is Your Wife"

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Post by Miles »

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"In a now-deleted sermon video, Dr. Burnett L, Robinson, the senior pastor at Grand Concourse Seventh-day Adventist Church in the Bronx (New York), told men that it was acceptable to rape their wives because women were commanded to submit to their husbands.

At least one person got a clip of that sermon before the church tries to remove it:


.......................................................................................

. . .Wives, you must submit yourselves to your husbands as unto the Lord. And in this matter of submission, I want you to know up front, ladies, that once you get married, you are no longer your own. You are your husband's. You understand what I'm saying about you?

And I emphasize that, because I saw, in court the other day on TV, where a lady sued her husband for rape. And I would say to you, gentlemen, the best person to rape is your wife.

But then, now it has become legalized---rape. I don't understand, "oh, you belong to somebody," and they are . . . all right . .


(I don't understand the last lines without more context.)
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This Christian rule isn't unique to this church, Seventh-day Adventists in general, or this pastor. It's the sort of thing white evangelicals have been preaching for a while now, as noted by Religion News Service:

The passage [from Ephesians] made news headlines back in in 1998 when the Southern Baptist Convention, the nation's largest Protestant denomination, amended its statement of faith to include a declaration that a woman should "submit herself graciously" to her husband's leadership"
source


Now this is no small Christian sect or cult, but an honest to god 21+ million member Christian religion the good Rev. Robinson represents.

So, considering the Southern Baptist Convention's regard of females, and apparently now the Seventh-day Adventists view of wives being quite rape-able, is this an upcoming trend in Christian morality? "Come here woman. You is about to get raped." Is it yours?


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Re: "The Best Person To Rape Is Your Wife"

Post #31

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Purple Knight wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:30 pm It's still worrying enough because God also told the wife to submit to it if the husband does it.
God does no such thing. There is nothing in the bible that suggest a wife is expected to willingly submit herself to sexual abuse any more than that she should willingly submit to being murdered.





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Re: "The Best Person To Rape Is Your Wife"

Post #32

Post by Purple Knight »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:36 pm
Purple Knight wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:30 pm It's still worrying enough because God also told the wife to submit to it if the husband does it.
God does no such thing. There is nothing in the bible that suggest a wife should willingly submit herself to sexual abuse.
It instructs the wife to submit to anything. You're right that this doesn't mean the husband may do anything, but this is where effective permission comes in. If he does it anyway, she has to submit to it.

This is where your crudburger graphic is appropriate. If the menu forces you to eat everything served to you, you do have to start worrying what if they serve you a crudburger, because you now have to eat it. If they have some rule that says don't serve that, good for them, but people don't always follow all the rules.

I'm even being logically chivalrous here and trying to see that ideally this is talking about a system where everyone follows basic Christian rules. It may seem unfair to be talking about a system where one party is breaking those rules, but good God, people aren't perfect. I know you don't hold the same opinion of humanity that I do, but you'll at least agree that people aren't perfect. That means they need to be reminded to do the right thing sometimes, not blindly submitted to when they're doing the wrong thing.

You can't just make a rule that Canadian drivers may never report Australian drivers and say, well, we never specifically told the Australians they could go demolition derby on the Canadians. Nowhere did we say that. You make that rule and they will. That is its effect. And that would be a worrisome rule for that reason.

And this is coming from someone who legitimately wonders if a true patriarchal system is better. It might be, but it's not applicable to the direction our society went for a number of reasons, the main one being that fathers must have a vested interest in their daughters. You would think genetic imperatives would accomplish that, but when a third of children now live in single-parent homes, that apparently doesn't happen.

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Re: "The Best Person To Rape Is Your Wife"

Post #33

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Purple Knight wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:08 pm
It instructs the wife to submit to anything.
The bible does no such thing! Where did you read that? (text please)
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Re: "The Best Person To Rape Is Your Wife"

Post #34

Post by Purple Knight »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:10 pm
Purple Knight wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:08 pm
It instructs the wife to submit to anything.
The bible does no such thing! Where did you read that? (text please)
https://biblehub.com/ephesians/5-22.htm

Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord.

Now, because this says submit as you submit to the Lord, without your husband being that perfect, I will give you an example of why this is so worrisome.

God makes it clear in the story of Abraham and Issac that yes, being willing to submit to what would have been murder is the right thing. God just wouldn't ever actually require that. The problem is that when you put an imperfect human being in the place of God, he sometimes will, because he's an imperfect human being.

Yes, God definitely seems to require that level of submission to himself: Absolute submission, even if the act would otherwise be wrong, even if it would otherwise be murder. And now he says the wife must have that same level of submission to the husband as to God. Only we have no guarantee the husband will change his mind and say don't actually do that at the last minute, only having been testing her loyalty. So when you put these two things together, absolute submission as to God, and replacing the object of submission with a person, yes to submitting to murder.

It's what I call the Tivoli problem which I'm going to make a topic about. Being 100% submissive and nonjudgmental can't make you into a good guy.

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Re: "The Best Person To Rape Is Your Wife"

Post #35

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Purple Knight wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:24 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:10 pm
Purple Knight wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:08 pm
It instructs the wife to submit to anything.
The bible does no such thing! Where did you read that? (text please)
https://biblehub.com/ephesians/5-22.htm

Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord.
So her submission is modified by the expressoon "as (or in the same manner as) she submits to the Lord. Scripturally, in what way/manner does a Chistian woman submit to Jesus (The Lord) ? Is it absolute or relative? Does Jesus have absolute power to ask his subordinates anything or does he have a head (someone above him) that effectively limits what he has a right to do?

Three guesses 1Cor 11:3b



Critically thinking,




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Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "The Best Person To Rape Is Your Wife"

Post #36

Post by Purple Knight »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:32 pmSo her submission is modified by the expression "as (or in the same manner as) she submits to the Lord. Scripturally, in what way/manner does a Christian woman submit to Jesus (The Lord) ? Is it absolute or relative?
I've been reading "the Lord" as God, not Jesus. Is that incorrect? People sometimes call Jesus "Lord" but my thinking has been when it says "the Lord" it probably means God.

But I don't think it makes a difference whether Jesus or God is limited or effectively limited in what they may do, because this problem is specifically addressed in the story of Abraham and Issac. No, God won't murder you. Maybe he effectively can't, since he's so perfect he'd never do it. But as to the degree of submission required, you absolutely are required to submit to murder even if that would never actually happen. That's why my answer is absolute, not relative. You are required to submit to anything, even the stuff God would never do.

It's a good question and I'm glad the story of Abraham and Issac addresses it. Submitting to God is too easy, if you know he's loving and wouldn't hurt you. At that point you're basically being selfish. That's the whole reason for this story: Even though it would never happen, to truly worship God, you'd have to be willing to submit to murder for him. You'd have to be willing to submit even if it hurt or killed you.

However, that's why the quote from Ephesians is so troubling. Requiring that same degree of submission to a mortal, imperfect man just because he married you will sometimes get you raped, beaten, or murdered, because mortal men sometimes rape, abuse, and kill.

I'm not trying to win a debate here and frankly I don't think you ought to be in the corner you're in. This feels like me using the taboos of a society I don't trust is right to attain a better debating position, and I don't like it. The Bible is structured around a patriarchy and it's possible that really is the better system. It's possible females can't make the same quality of decisions males can and that's why patriarchy endures for so long. When given absolute freedom and full rights they do seem to have a lot of children out of wedlock they can't support. It's also possible that, as it was with America and slavery, it's easy to build a morally foul society into a prosperous one simply because when you treat some people like commodities, you have more commodities; everyone working for a few makes the few more prosperous. I want to address every possibility fairly, even if that can't be done here.

If I get that twinge that something I'm doing is wrong, I have no choice but to act on it even though it leads me astray 90% of the time. I'm getting it now. "Patriarchy is the best system" is a legitimate position, but you can't defend it because you'd be eviscerated and you know so. I can't fight someone when they have one hand tied behind their back. I want to give you the opportunity to untie it.

This thread started with an unfounded assertion that females should be treated as the equals of males. I acknowledge that. And it wasn't fair.

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Re: "The Best Person To Rape Is Your Wife"

Post #37

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Purple Knight wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:15 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:32 pmSo her submission is modified by the expression "as (or in the same manner as) she submits to the Lord. Scripturally, in what way/manner does a Christian woman submit to Jesus (The Lord) ? Is it absolute or relative?
I've been reading "the Lord" as God, not Jesus. Is that incorrect?
Yes that is incorrect.
EPHESIANS 5

Be in subjection to one another in fear of Christ. 22 Let wives be in subjection to their husbands+ as to the Lord, 23 because a husband is head of his wife+ just as the Christ is head of the congregation,+ he being a savior of this body. 24 In fact, as the congregation is in subjection to the Christ, wives should also be to their husbands in everything.
Purple Knight wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:15 pm But I don't think it makes a difference whether Jesus or God is limited ...
Scripturally it makes a great deal of difference, since subjection to Christ is relative and subjection to God is not. Since a wife' s subjection to her husband is in the same manner as her subjection to Christ (not God), we can logically conclude her subjection to her husband is also relative NOT absolute.

Ego she is under no obligation to submit to absolutely anything her husband choses to impose on her, but only that which he has a right to impose in obedience to his (the husband's) head.

Purple Knight wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:15 pm... the quote from Ephesians is so troubling. Requiring that same degree of submission to a mortal, imperfect man
The passage says no such thing. In the same degree would mean to the same extent or level. However, the passage does not say "degree" it says "as" (Greek hos) which according to Strongs refers to manner not extent.

Image
source: http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebibl ... .htm#S5613

To illustrate: If a sports coach told his charge to study an expert runner and run as he does; he is not instructing to run as far as the expert but to imitate the way (the manner) he runs perhaps pumping his arms in the same manner or kicking his heels up. [/u]

In the same way, Ehpesians does not instruct wives to go as far (extent degree) for their husbands as they do for Christ but to exercise their submission in the same manner. How do they exercise their submission to Christ ? In a relative NOT absolute manner (see above)


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Re: "The Best Person To Rape Is Your Wife"

Post #38

Post by Purple Knight »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:43 pm
I've been reading "the Lord" as God, not Jesus. Is that incorrect?
Yes that is incorrect.
Fair enough, but the pastor in the opening video seems to be making the same mistake. I'm taking your refusal to address the point about being on a playing field that won't allow you to defend patriarchy as saying you're fine with having that hand tied because you weren't planning on using it anyway. Just know that I understand that if the Bible is somehow true, patriarchy is probably moral, which means you're being forced to fight the devil with one foot in his camp, and that's not fair. I take seriously everything that is posted here, including the video posted by you about this world being a test of man's way. And I don't see how egalitarianism has yet produced good results.

I also think it's a bit of an assumption on your part to assume, because there is no Abraham and Issac story regarding Jesus telling someone to do something horrid and then taking it back, that submission to Jesus is relative to what Jesus might actually do. However, I admit that I also commit an assumption by assuming it goeth as the story goeth. I see it as the lesser assumption since we have an example of submission not being relative to what the being in question might actually do.

We would have to ask the question, "Well, if Jesus told you to kill a man, would you?" and the answer would have to be yes. Jesus won't tell you to kill a man, so without the story of Abraham and Issac I would assume the question is illogical and irrelevant, as well as being sort of loaded. Because of that story, though, I would think that we can ask the question and God not only cares about the answer, but he wants it to be yes.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:43 pmThe passage says no such thing. In the same degree would mean to the same extent or level. However, the passage does not say "degree" it says "as" (Greek hos) which according to Strongs refers to manner not extent.

Image
source: http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebibl ... .htm#S5613
To illustrate: If a sports coach told his charge to study an expert runner and run as he does; he is not instructing to run as far as the expert but to imitate the way (the manner) he runs perhaps pumping his arms in the same manner or kicking his heels up.
I think that's a very fair example because it does show as being used as you're reading it. But it also shows it as being heavily contextual. The coach might also instruct a new runner to look at the expert and run the course as the expert does, going as far and doing the same sequence of actions as the expert. A different coach might even mean run exactly as fast, it's just, he's not a very good coach if he means that, so we're all looking for him to be talking about technique because otherwise he's not really doing his job. In other words, we're looking at context.

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Re: "The Best Person To Rape Is Your Wife"

Post #39

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Purple Knight wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:46 pm
I think that's a very fair example because it does show as being used as you're reading it. ...
I am reading it in line with the Greek meaning of the word perfectly in line with it's contextual use. You however have yet to support your claim that scripturally submission to Christ is anything but relative.



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Re: "The Best Person To Rape Is Your Wife"

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Post by Purple Knight »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:56 am
Purple Knight wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:46 pm
I think that's a very fair example because it does show as being used as you're reading it. ...
I am reading it in line with the Greek meaning of the word perfectly in line with it's contextual use. You however have yet to support your claim that scripturally submission to Christ is anything but relative.
You admit that submission to God is not relative, and even though God would never actually do certain things, you still must be willing to submit to those things. With submission to God being uncoupled from what that being will actually do, I don't see why submission to Christ would be different.

I think I'm justified in extending Abraham and Issac - absolute submission - until scripture says it doesn't extend.

If someone tells me you always have to throw the ball, I'd be a little fink if I said, well, nobody told me I have to throw the ball to Billy.

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