Not Needed By God

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William
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Not Needed By God

Post #1

Post by William »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:02 am
William wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:55 pm

The very idea that יהוה doesn't need assistance flies in the face of all the biblical stories told. Surely you are misrepresenting יהוה in that regard.
There are no biblical stories where God has "needed assistance" he needs noone to accomplish his purpose.

The fact that He has condescended to allow humans to play a part therein does not equates to his being unable to achieved what he wants without them. The bible repeatedly refers to Jehovah as the Almighty, so logically being all powerful an omnipotent God has no need of extra input to do what he wants. If Jehovah delegates its an expression of his love and mercy as the righteous view it as a privilege to be used by God.
QFB Is the idea that an almighty being can do everything without the assistance of anything, logically sound?



.

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Re: Not Needed By God

Post #101

Post by nobspeople »

2timothy316 wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:48 am
nobspeople wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:41 am
2timothy316 wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:04 am [Replying to William in post #94]


There's no logical why a person paints a picture. They do it because they wanted to or because they love to paint.
Only if the painter in question hates to paint or doesn't want to paint the picture. Otherwise, if a person loves to paint and wants to paint, and paints, it's very logical that they do so.
This simply means logic is in the details and needs to be looked for. Over generalizations over logic aren't accurate.
So, isn't it logical to conclude that Almighty God made created us because He loves to create or something like that and to look for something beyond that logic is illogical?
I don't think god did anything, but to the specifics of the question, this would assume god is real and did do something.

A such, I don't think, nor believe, logic, as understood by humanity, translates (if you will) to a being such as god, if god is the all knowing, all powerful. et al being some claim it is. Such a being is outside the scope of the understanding of humans no matter how much logic is involved.

That said, if one were to lower god to humanity's standard (or raise humanity to god's standard) - all things being equal I guess you could say - logically it would stand to reason god created us for a reason.
What that reason is, is known only to god.
Maybe god wanted to be happy. I find this to be the 'go-to' for many, because it makes them feel good. But, maybe it wanted slaves, it wanted to use humanity as toys much like a child uses army men as toys, it was bored, it was dared, it was curious (which would seem to negate the all knowing aspect of god some would say)... the list is almost endless.
Point being, all things being equal, we don't know why god created humanity. We can use the bible to try to figure it out, and maybe make claims based on logic.
But all things AREN'T equal and thus, logic only goes so far, which, when dealing with an all present, all knowing, all creating, all powerful, all-whatever being such as god is claimed to be, isn't nearly far enough.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Not Needed By God

Post #102

Post by William »

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #100]
So, isn't it logical to conclude that Almighty God made created us because He loves to create or something like that and to look for something beyond that logic is illogical?
This might be logical, but cannot apply to the BGAME [biblical God all mighty entity] due to the stories told about him.

While we can agree that ANY being who loves to create WILL create, the BGAME can be seen to also [along with that] have had a definite purpose to WHY he created.
So re the BGAME - we can't just claim what he created here, was just/simply for the sake of creating/being creative.

So when a Christian claims that the BGAME needs "no one to accomplish his purpose so logically being all powerful an omnipotent God has no need of extra input to do what he wants." is the same as saying that "an almighty being can do everything without the assistance of anything" which is the same as saying "an almighty being can get your permission to create you without first creating you" which is not logical, even that the Christian claims otherwise.

The test is simply.

IF
An almighty being can get your permission to create you without first creating you

THEN
Anyone claiming that should have no problem explaining the logistics/logic involved that process.

Rather what comes forth is the sound of crickets chirping with the occasional "god works in mysterious ways" thrown in as if somehow that should be enough to convince us.

Search: "logistics meaning"
the detailed organization and implementation of a complex operation.

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Re: Not Needed By God

Post #103

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to William in post #102]
IF
An almighty being can get your permission to create you without first creating you

THEN
Anyone claiming that should have no problem explaining the logistics/logic involved that process.


As I understand your concept here, you're saying because someone gets your permission to create that person, that person should have no problem explaining how they were created and the manner in which they were created after giving permission?
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Re: Not Needed By God

Post #104

Post by William »

nobspeople wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:44 pm [Replying to William in post #102]
IF
An almighty being can get your permission to create you without first creating you

THEN
Anyone claiming that should have no problem explaining the logistics/logic involved that process.


As I understand your concept here, you're saying because someone gets your permission to create that person, that person should have no problem explaining how they were created and the manner in which they were created after giving permission?
I am not saying that.

Lets say you wanted to create a real boy out of a wooden puppet.

Image

How do you go about asking that wooden puppet if it wood be okay for you to create a real boy of him, and actually get his permission to do so without first having to make him into a real boy who can actually give you his permission to make him into a real boy?

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Re: Not Needed By God

Post #105

Post by nobspeople »

William wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:11 pm
nobspeople wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:44 pm [Replying to William in post #102]
IF
An almighty being can get your permission to create you without first creating you

THEN
Anyone claiming that should have no problem explaining the logistics/logic involved that process.


As I understand your concept here, you're saying because someone gets your permission to create that person, that person should have no problem explaining how they were created and the manner in which they were created after giving permission?
I am not saying that.

Lets say you wanted to create a real boy out of a wooden puppet.

Image

How do you go about asking that wooden puppet if it wood be okay for you to create a real boy of him, and actually get his permission to do so without first having to make him into a real boy who can actually give you his permission to make him into a real boy?
Humans can't (as best I can tell, anyway). I suspect something capable of anything (as some claim god is) could do that. As to the mechanics of it....? :confused2:
But simply because humans can't say how it can happen doesn't mean, in the vastness of everything, it can't happen.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Not Needed By God

Post #106

Post by William »

nobspeople wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:19 pm
William wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:11 pm
nobspeople wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:44 pm [Replying to William in post #102]
IF
An almighty being can get your permission to create you without first creating you

THEN
Anyone claiming that should have no problem explaining the logistics/logic involved that process.


As I understand your concept here, you're saying because someone gets your permission to create that person, that person should have no problem explaining how they were created and the manner in which they were created after giving permission?
I am not saying that.

Lets say you wanted to create a real boy out of a wooden puppet.

Image

How do you go about asking that wooden puppet if it wood be okay for you to create a real boy of him, and actually get his permission to do so without first having to make him into a real boy who can actually give you his permission to make him into a real boy?
Humans can't (as best I can tell, anyway). I suspect something capable of anything (as some claim god is) could do that. As to the mechanics of it....? :confused2:
But simply because humans can't say how it can happen doesn't mean, in the vastness of everything, it can't happen.
Well not only do some folks say it CAN happen, but that it DID happen.:confused2:

Do you want me to tell you how I would get the puppets permission to create a real boy out of him, if I were an AME?

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Re: Not Needed By God

Post #107

Post by nobspeople »

William wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:29 pm
nobspeople wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:19 pm
William wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:11 pm
nobspeople wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:44 pm [Replying to William in post #102]
IF
An almighty being can get your permission to create you without first creating you

THEN
Anyone claiming that should have no problem explaining the logistics/logic involved that process.


As I understand your concept here, you're saying because someone gets your permission to create that person, that person should have no problem explaining how they were created and the manner in which they were created after giving permission?
I am not saying that.

Lets say you wanted to create a real boy out of a wooden puppet.

Image

How do you go about asking that wooden puppet if it wood be okay for you to create a real boy of him, and actually get his permission to do so without first having to make him into a real boy who can actually give you his permission to make him into a real boy?
Humans can't (as best I can tell, anyway). I suspect something capable of anything (as some claim god is) could do that. As to the mechanics of it....? :confused2:
But simply because humans can't say how it can happen doesn't mean, in the vastness of everything, it can't happen.
Well not only do some folks say it CAN happen, but that it DID happen.:confused2:
Humanity is a weird species and they tend to say and believe in a lot of things with little to no evidence or, sometimes, no good reason, so it should come as no surprise :confused2:
Which is why places like this is so interesting and enjoyable.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Not Needed By God

Post #108

Post by William »

[Replying to nobspeople in post #107]

I take it that you do not want me to tell you how I would get the puppets permission to create a real boy out of him, if I were an AME?

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Re: Not Needed By God

Post #109

Post by nobspeople »

William wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:30 am [Replying to nobspeople in post #107]

I take it that you do not want me to tell you how I would get the puppets permission to create a real boy out of him, if I were an AME?
If you want, but it's not necessary for me to know.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Not Needed By God

Post #110

Post by William »

nobspeople wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:37 am
William wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:30 am [Replying to nobspeople in post #107]

I take it that you do not want me to tell you how I would get the puppets permission to create a real boy out of him, if I were an AME?
If you want, but it's not necessary for me to know.
I am curious. Will you share why?

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