Not Needed By God

[William]

The very idea that יהוה doesn't need assistance flies in the face of all the biblical stories told. Surely you are misrepresenting יהוה in that regard.

There are no biblical stories where God has "needed assistance" he needs noone to accomplish his purpose.

The fact that He has condescended to allow humans to play a part therein does not equates to his being unable to achieved what he wants without them. The bible repeatedly refers to Jehovah as the Almighty, so logically being all powerful an omnipotent God has no need of extra input to do what he wants. If Jehovah delegates its an expression of his love and mercy as the righteous view it as a privilege to be used by God.

QFB Is the idea that an almighty being can do everything without the assistance of anything, logically sound?



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[William]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #10]

Any single living being would be almighty over nothing. There would be nothing which was not under its control. He, she, or it would definitely be all powerful.

Perhaps if such were the case, I could accept that logic. But then again, if there is no thing in which to compare with it, it would only be almighty in relation to its own self - which wouldn't be logical because how can something be almighty over something which is almighty?

In relation to the QFD [Is the idea that an almighty being can do everything without the assistance of anything, logically sound?] you have argued to cut out everything except the almighty being, thus creating a strawman argument which veers away from the QFD.

What exists to acknowledge the almighty being is almighty, except for the almighty being itself?

It is as if you are arguing that an almighty being can do everything without the assistance of anything, but only potentially rather than actually but the question isn't concerned with what an almighty being can potentially do.

[2timothy316]

The very idea that יהוה doesn't need assistance flies in the face of all the biblical stories told. Surely you are misrepresenting יהוה in that regard.

There are no biblical stories where God has "needed assistance" he needs noone to accomplish his purpose.

The fact that He has condescended to allow humans to play a part therein does not equates to his being unable to achieved what he wants without them. The bible repeatedly refers to Jehovah as the Almighty, so logically being all powerful an omnipotent God has no need of extra input to do what he wants. If Jehovah delegates its an expression of his love and mercy as the righteous view it as a privilege to be used by God.

QFB Is the idea that an almighty being can do everything without the assistance of anything, logically sound?



.

Logically and scripturally sound.
"The God who made the world and all the things in it, being, as he is, Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in handmade temples; nor is he served by human hands as if he needed anything." - Acts 17:24, 25

The sculpture points out two things here:
1. Being the God who made the world, before there were humans, Jehovah clearly didn't human assistance to make the world and everything in it.
2. The scripture plainly states that Jehovah is, "not served by human hands as if he needed anything."

If Jehovah gives us work to do that will assist Him it is a gift, it is for our benefit and for our enjoyment. (Ecc 3:13, Is 48:17)

[myth-one.com]

Any single living being would be almighty over nothing. There would be nothing which was not under its control. He, she, or it would definitely be all powerful.

Perhaps if such were the case, I could accept that logic. But then again, if there is no thing in which to compare with it, it would only be almighty in relation to its own self - which wouldn't be logical because how can something be almighty over something which is almighty?

We're discussing a single and only living being. A living being is living in some type of environment. If that being is almighty, then it has absolute control over its environment.

Here's a biblical example:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:1-3)

In relation to the QFD [Is the idea that an almighty being can do everything without the assistance of anything, logically sound?] you have argued to cut out everything except the almighty being, thus creating a strawman argument which veers away from the QFD.

Add back in that almighty's environment.

What exists to acknowledge the almighty being is almighty, except for the almighty being itself?

If the initial beginning is the almighty and its environment, then there is no other being to acknowledge that the almighty is almighty, but the almighty.

While the almighty's creations will reflect the almighty's grandeur, there are no other beings to appreciate His creations.

So the almighty then creates other creatures and places them in an environment created to be perfect for their survival and happiness within that environment. They are then given dominion over that environment and instructions (or laws) as to how to maintain the perfect balance of that situation.

To maintain that balance, the inhabitants of the almighty's creations must make decisions regarding maintaining the state of things under their dominion. They must be able to analyze multiple possibilities and chose the best choice. Thus they must possess freedom of choice.

It is as if you are arguing that an almighty being can do everything without the assistance of anything, but only potentially rather than actually but the question isn't concerned with what an almighty being can potentially do.

I don't see it that way.

It's a real world, not a potential world.

[bjs1]

There are three laws of logic that determine is something is logically sound. These laws are the law of identity, law of non-contradiction, and law of the excluded middle. All three are attributed to Aristotle.

https://study.com/academy/lesson/the-th ... 0be%20true.

Being logically sound does not make something true or reasonable. It just means that it doesn’t violate any of these laws of logic.

The stated question was, “Is the idea that an almighty being can do everything without the assistance of anything, logically sound?”

The concept does not violate any of the laws of logic, so the answer is yes.

The reasoning in post 2 that God needs humans to exist in order to have someone to condescend* to is false. Unless humans are required do something to assist in God’s condescension, then the answer to the debate question remains “Yes, it is logically sound.”



*Actually condescend. God is above people, so He would be literally coming down to our level.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to William in post #1]

Is the idea that an almighty being can do everything without the assistance of anything, logically sound?

If the term 'almighty' means all capable and is apt, then it would make logical sense to say god can do anything without any assistance. If the bible story is to be believed, he did just that.

Rather or not being 'all capable' is logical is another story altogether.

[William]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #12]

Logically and scripturally sound.
"The God who made the world and all the things in it, being, as he is, Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in handmade temples; nor is he served by human hands as if he needed anything." - Acts 17:24, 25

Given God gave Satan temporary rulership over the Earth, and had his reasons for doing so, God obviously needs Satan in that role, for the time being.

[Given that Satan is not a human, he can serve God in this way with his non-human hands.]

The script does not really address the claim that God doesn't need anything.

The sculpture points out two things here:
1. Being the God who made the world, before there were humans, Jehovah clearly didn't human assistance to make the world and everything in it.
The
2. The scripture plainly states that Jehovah is, "not served by human hands as if he needed anything."

QFB Is the idea that an almighty being can do everything without the assistance of anything, logically sound?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #12]

Logically and scripturally sound.
"The God who made the world and all the things in it, being, as he is, Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in handmade temples; nor is he served by human hands as if he needed anything." - Acts 17:24, 25

Given God gave Satan temporary rulership over the Earth, and had his reasons for doing so, God obviously needs Satan in that role, for the time being.

[Given that Satan is not a human, he can serve God in this way with his non-human hands.]

So you're moving the goal post...

No matter, you seem to be confused with that God wants and what He needs. Please explain using your chosen reference why God, who created all things and who was around before anyone was around to fill those needs you speak of, needs anyone or anything. Will God die without His creation? I do not want to hear opinions.

[William]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #13]

Perhaps if such were the case, I could accept that logic. But then again, if there is no thing in which to compare with it, it would only be almighty in relation to its own self - which wouldn't be logical because how can something be almighty over something which is almighty?

We're discussing a single and only living being. A living being is living in some type of environment. If that being is almighty, then it has absolute control over its environment.

You are arguing that a being who exists alone, would have need of an environment?

If so, then the QFB [Is the idea that an almighty being can do everything without the assistance of anything, logically sound?] isn't actually logically sound.

You appear to be saying that it is NOT logically sound, yet you also appear to be disagreeing with me.

An almighty being within an environment should make no difference unless the environment itself were able to acknowledge the almighty being.

If the initial beginning is the almighty and its environment, then there is no other being to acknowledge that the almighty is almighty, but the almighty.

Yes. As I said;
if there is no thing in which to compare with it, it would only be almighty in relation to its own self - which wouldn't be logical because how can something be almighty over something which is almighty?

While the almighty's creations will reflect the almighty's grandeur, there are no other beings to appreciate His creations.

Exactly. So IF this almighty being can do everything without the assistance of anything THEN there should be no need to create beings to appreciate His non-conscious creations. Such an almighty being can do that all by itself.

So the almighty then creates other creatures and places them in an environment created to be perfect for their survival and happiness within that environment. They are then given dominion over that environment and instructions (or laws) as to how to maintain the perfect balance of that situation.

How is this related to an almighty being that can do everything without the assistance of anything?

He could have done all that without creating creatures to do all that.

To maintain that balance, the inhabitants of the almighty's creations must make decisions regarding maintaining the state of things under their dominion. They must be able to analyze multiple possibilities and chose the best choice. Thus they must possess freedom of choice.

A game and the games rules.

Is this then a case that the almighty one couldn't make such a game to be played [or however one wants to describe it] without the game-board or the game players?

IF so, THEN - clearly - the almighty cannot do everything without the assistance of anything.

[William]

[2timothy316 post_id=1057693 time=1638213517 user_id=13243]
[William post_id=1057692 time=1638212989 user_id=8427]
[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #12]

Logically and scripturally sound.
"The God who made the world and all the things in it, being, as he is, Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in handmade temples; nor is he served by human hands as if he needed anything." - Acts 17:24, 25

Given God gave Satan temporary rulership over the Earth, and had his reasons for doing so, God obviously needs Satan in that role, for the time being.

[Given that Satan is not a human, he can serve God in this way with his non-human hands.]

So you're moving the goal post...

Nope. I am reminding christians of the bigger picture of their mythology.

No matter, you seem to be confused with that God wants and what He needs. Please explain using your chosen reference why God, who created all things and who was around before anyone was around to fill those needs you speak of, needs anyone or anything. Will God die without His creation? I do not want to hear opinions.

The QFD was inspired by the quoted passage in the OP, specifically this part of the argument.
The fact that He has condescended to allow humans to play a part therein does not equates to his being unable to achieved what he wants without them.

How can an almighty being not require anything but create things anyway and then make specific rules in relation to those created things, for the specific purpose of achieving what it wants with them?

That is not logically sound. Obviously creating something means that in the creating of that something, one has a need of that something and cannot achieve what it needs, without said something.

[2timothy316]

[2timothy316 post_id=1057693 time=1638213517 user_id=13243]
[William post_id=1057692 time=1638212989 user_id=8427]
[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #12]

Logically and scripturally sound.
"The God who made the world and all the things in it, being, as he is, Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in handmade temples; nor is he served by human hands as if he needed anything." - Acts 17:24, 25

Given God gave Satan temporary rulership over the Earth, and had his reasons for doing so, God obviously needs Satan in that role, for the time being.

[Given that Satan is not a human, he can serve God in this way with his non-human hands.]

So you're moving the goal post...

Nope. I am reminding christians of the bigger picture of their mythology.

You started with one thing and started adding more. That's moving the goal post. Regardless of your moving the goal post there is no where you can move it where Jehovah God needs His creation.

Obviously creating something means that in the creating of that something, one has a need of that something and cannot achieve what it needs, without said something.

No it doesn't. If my wife and I have a baby, we don't need it. We wanted it. Our lives do not depend on having a child. Nor does Jehovah need angels or humans.

Perhaps you could define what a need is and what a want is. There is a difference.