Why not just Jesus?

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Why not just Jesus?

Post #1

Post by Veridican »

Do you ever wonder why, if we are Christians, we don't just follow the Gospels? Like, they would be our only canon of scripture, everything else would just be for historical reference, wisdom, or good advice, but we would be followers of Jesus ONLY. He would be our only teacher. Our canon then would be Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Revelation. Why has there never even been a cult, or church, or denomination like that in all of history? :?:
All for Christ and only for Christ! :wave:

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Re: Why not just Jesus?

Post #111

Post by JehovahsWitness »

SHOULD CHRISTIANS LIMIT THEIR CANON TO THE GOSPELS?

Certain groups and individuals reject much of the traditional bible canon and argue that Christians should only accept the gospels and the book of Revelation as being of Divine origin. While on a superficial level this might seem logical, it is in reality a decidedly anti-Christ position that conflicts both with the spirit and the letter if Jesus own teachings.

HAVE YOU NOT READ?

Jesus was often asked for his opinion on various topics, he consistently refrained from simply stating his own opinion, although he of course had the authority to do so. What he did was refer to the Hebrew canon citing it as the authoritative conclusion on matters. If Jesus accepted the Hebrew Canon as authoritive, how can those that claim to follow him, do otherwise?
MATTHEW 19: 3-4

Then some Pharisees came and tested Him by asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason?” 4 Jesus answered, “ Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ 5and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’?
JOHN 17:17

"Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth
"YOUR WORD" is not here referring to Jesus himself (or he would have no doubt said *I* or "my words" ) Jesus here refers to that which is communicate from God -> through him (Jesus) --> to his human servants = DIVINE TRUTH. If some of those servants are inspired to write those divine truths down on papier we have inspired scripture of divine truths.



THE WORD OF GOD ENDURES FOREVER (Isaiah 40:8)

These Christians also confuse not being under law (subject to the Mosaic law) with degrading the law and the writings of the Prophets. The writings of God's Prophets were not mere human endeavors, but again and again they assured their readers they were conveying the words of God Almighty. If this was indeed the case, then those words can never be degraded, devalued or viewed as outdated. Whether they apply directly to the Christian era or not they remain forever the inspired words of divine origin and as such have their place within the bible canon.

ALL SCRIPTURE IS ABOUT CHRIST

Those that reject the Hebrew canon make the same fundemental error as the Pharisees in Jesus day; namely they failed to understand that ALL their scripture was in fact pointing to and about the Messiah. Think of the occassion when Jesus read from the scroll of Isaiah. That passage spoke of God (YHWH) anointing his servant to bring good news to people. Jesus concluded its fulfillment was found in him.
Image

How can someone claim to follow Christ but consider the books he clearly believed contained divine messages in the first century, as not having divine words in it today.

1 CORINTHIANS 1:20

Berean Study Bible
For all the promises of God are “Yes” in Christ. And so through Him, our “Amen” is spoken to the glory of God.

MEN SPOKE FROM GOD

Those that claim to follow the words of Jesus alone but exclude most of the Greek scripture find themselves in even more of a contradictory position. They accept the words of Jesus written by a human in one book but reject the words of Jesus in another. In the case of the book of The ACTS of the APOSTLES, arguably written by Luke who wrote the gospel. But if they were to accept Acts (sometimes refered to as "the fifth gospel") , they would be obliged to accept Jesus commission of the Apostle Paul.

CONCLUSION: Those that refuse to recognise both the Hebrew canon and the Christian Greek scriptures as being of divine origin paint themselves into the uncomfortable corner of failing to follow the example of Christ who evidently reccognised the Hebrew bible as authoritative, failing to accept all the available words of Christ (as recorded outside of the gospels) and implying that Gods words lose value and relevance with the passing of time. An unenviable position to be in for anyone attempting to live up to the Christian calling and certainly no basis for claiming to be true religion.

Further reading
https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/my- ... s-written/






RELATED POSTS
Should true Christians denegrade Hebrew scripture ?
viewtopic.php?p=1065096#p1065096

Should true Christians limit their canon to the gospels?
viewtopic.php?p=1065014#p1065014

What does it mean that the bible is "inspired of God"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 65#p867965

Who do bible writers claim gave them the words they penned?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 08#p840508

Is there is evidence that the apocryphal books were NOT originally recognized as part of the inspired Scriptures?
viewtopic.php?p=838822#p838822

How should we view Iraneus' and other early catalogues?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 84#p923384

Does the idea of a Great Apostacy negate the authenticity of the bible canon? [this post]
viewtopic.php?p=1045515#p1045515
To read more please go to other posts related to...

BIBLE CANON , CHRISTIANITY and ...RELIGIOUS DENOMINATIONS
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat Jan 29, 2022 5:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Why not just Jesus?

Post #112

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:28 am SHOULD CHRISTIANS LIMIT THEIR CANON TO THE GOSPELS?

Certain groups and individuals reject much of the traditional bible canon and argue that Christians should only accept the gospels and the book of Revelation as being of Divine origin. While on a superficial level this might seem logical, it is in reality a decidedly anti-Christ position that conflicts both with the spirit and the letter if Jesus own teachings.

HAVE YOU NOT READ?

Jesus was often asked for his opinion on various topics, he consistently refrained from simply stating his own opinion, although he of course had the authority to do so. What he did was refer to the Hebrew canon citing it as the authoritative conclusion on matters. If Jesus accepted the Hebrew Canon as authoritive, how can those that claim to follow him, do otherwise?
MATTHEW 19: 3-4

Then some Pharisees came and tested Him by asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason?” 4 Jesus answered, “ Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ 5and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’?
JOHN 17:17

"Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth
"YOUR WORD" is not here referring to Jesus himself (or he would have no doubt said *I* or "my words" ) Jesus here refers to that which is communicate from God -> through him (Jesus) --> to his human servants = DIVINE TRUTH. If some of those servants are inspired to write those divine truths down on papier we have inspired scripture of divine truths.



THE WORD OF GOD ENDURES FOREVER (Isaiah 40:8)

These Christians also confuse not being under law (subject to the Mosaic law) with degrading the law and the writings of the Prophets. The writings of God's Prophets were not mere human endeavors, but again and again they assured their readers they were conveying the words of God Almighty. If this was indeed the case, then those words can never be degraded, devalued or viewed as outdated. Whether they apply directly to the Christian era or not they remain forever the inspired words of divine origin and as such have their place within the bible canon.

ALL SCRIPTURE IS ABOUT CHRIST

Those that reject the Hebrew canon make the same fundemental error as the Pharisees in Jesus day; namely they failed to understand that ALL their scripture was in fact pointing to and about the Messiah. Think of the occassion when Jesus read from the scroll of Isaiah. That passage spoke of God (YHWH) anointing his servant to bring good news to people. Jesus concluded its fulfillment was found in him.
Image

How can someone claim to follow Christ but consider the books he clearly believed contained divine messages in the first century, as not having divine words in it today.

1 CORINTHIANS 1:20

Berean Study Bible
For all the promises of God are “Yes” in Christ. And so through Him, our “Amen” is spoken to the glory of God.

MEN SPOKE FROM GOD

Those that claim to follow the words of Jesus alone but exclude most of the Greek scripture find themselves in even more of a contradictory position. They accept the words of Jesus written by a human in one book but reject the words of Jesus in another. In the case of the book of The ACTS of the APOSTLES, arguably written by Luke who wrote the gospel. But if they were to accept Acts (sometimes refered to as "the fifth gospel") , they would be obliged to accept Jesus commission of the Apostle Paul.

CONCLUSION: Those that refuse to recognise both the Hebrew canon and the Christian Greek scriptures as being of divine origin paint themselves into the uncomfortable corner of failing to follow the example of Christ who evidently reccognised the Hebrew bible as authoritative, falling to accept all the words of Christ as recorded outside of the gospels and implying that Gods words lose value and relevance with the passing of time. An unenviable position to be in for anyone attempting to live up to the Christian calling and certainly no basis for claiming to be true religion.

Further reading
https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/my- ... s-written/
With respect to the Scriptures, the Old Testament, Yeshua said they cannot be broken. With regard to the New Testament, he said it was a mix of the message of the devil, mixed with the message of the son of man (Matthew 13), and the devil's spawn, the lawless tares, would be under protection until the "end of the age", where upon, they would be gathered out and burnt (Matthew 13:30), referring to the upcoming great tribulation.

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Re: Why not just Jesus?

Post #113

Post by Veridican »

Miles wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 2:09 am

Obviously convincing to you, and obviously not convincing to me.



And maybe you just need it.


And people love to believe whatever allays their fears.


Man, I don't care what you believe. If God wants to save your soul, He'll save it. I don't need you to agree with me.
All for Christ and only for Christ! :wave:

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Re: Why not just Jesus?

Post #114

Post by cms »

Miles wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:15 am The lack of convincing evidence for the existence of god.
Miles, I think everyone has a god-meaning an authority that you live by. For example, if someone told you to kill babies, would you do it? From your previous responses, I'd say that the authority (god) that you live by says no. There are obviously laws that control things in our world for example, the law of gravity. Is there a natural law ( God) that mankind is supposed to live by?

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Re: Why not just Jesus?

Post #115

Post by Miles »

Veridican wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:15 am
Miles wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 2:09 am

Obviously convincing to you, and obviously not convincing to me.



And maybe you just need it.


And people love to believe whatever allays their fears.


Man, I don't care what you believe. If God wants to save your soul, He'll save it. I don't need you to agree with me.
Yet you're compelled to respond to my post. How sweet. :hug:


.

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Re: Why not just Jesus?

Post #116

Post by Miles »

cms wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 2:50 pm
Miles wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:15 am The lack of convincing evidence for the existence of god.
Miles, I think everyone has a god-meaning an authority that you live by. For example, if someone told you to kill babies, would you do it? From your previous responses, I'd say that the authority (god) that you live by says no. There are obviously laws that control things in our world for example, the law of gravity. Is there a natural law ( God) that mankind is supposed to live by?
Prove it. Prove that there's "a god-meaning an authority that [ I ] live by." Heck! Simply prove there's any god at all. All I've seen are claims of his existence, and not a solitary piece of convincing evidence. Throw me a bone here: one solid, incontrovertible, piece of evidence is all I ask.



.

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Re: Why not just Jesus?

Post #117

Post by Veridican »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:28 am SHOULD CHRISTIANS LIMIT THEIR CANON TO THE GOSPELS?

Certain groups and individuals reject much of the traditional bible canon and argue that Christians should only accept the gospels and the book of Revelation as being of Divine origin.
Uh, yeah, JW, that would be me and my Church. And we're the only ones who believe that way. There has never been another church like us in the two thousand years of Christianity. We are the first. It's called the Veridican Church. But then, you do know that already, right?


While on a superficial level this might seem logical, it is in reality a decidedly anti-Christ position that conflicts both with the spirit and the letter if Jesus own teachings.

HAVE YOU NOT READ?

Jesus was often asked for his opinion on various topics, he consistently refrained from simply stating his own opinion, although he of course had the authority to do so. What he did was refer to the Hebrew canon citing it as the authoritative conclusion on matters. If Jesus accepted the Hebrew Canon as authoritive, how can those that claim to follow him, do otherwise?
Because we only follow Jesus Christ. If Jesus refers to the Psalms, we go and read the Psalms. Fine, but we don't "canonize" the Psalms, because we only follow the life and teachings of Jesus Christ.
MATTHEW 19: 3-4

Then some Pharisees came and tested Him by asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason?” 4 Jesus answered, “ Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ 5and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’?
THE WORD OF GOD ENDURES FOREVER (Isaiah 40:8)

These Christians also confuse not being under law (subject to the Mosaic law) with degrading the law and the writings of the Prophets. The writings of God's Prophets were not mere human endeavors, but again and again they assured their readers they were conveying the words of God Almighty. If this was indeed the case, then those words can never be degraded, devalued or viewed as outdated. Whether they apply directly to the Christian era or not they remain forever the inspired words of divine origin and as such have their place within the bible canon.
Jesus changed everything. His life and teachings changed our relationship to God. It changed the covenant between man and God. He brought us "atonement." It is irrelevant if Leviticus is the word of God or not. God is only present to mankind through Jesus Christ. A Veridican follows ONLY Jesus Christ. This is not a hard concept to grasp. And it is a stand. The Church age is over. The tribulation era is coming. Veridicanism is the true religion of Jesus Christ. It's the only thing that is going to work going forward. You could call it something else! But the concept of Veridicanism is all that's left. The Church age ended in 1993.

ALL SCRIPTURE IS ABOUT CHRIST

Those that reject the Hebrew canon make the same fundemental error as the Pharisees in Jesus day; namely they failed to understand that ALL their scripture was in fact pointing to and about the Messiah. Think of the occassion when Jesus read from the scroll of Isaiah. That passage spoke of God (YHWH) anointing his servant to bring good news to people. Jesus concluded its fulfillment was found in him.
I agree, the Old Testament prophesies Jesus Christ. So what? Jesus has come. We have Jesus now; we don't really need Isaiah except as historical reference and biblical context.
How can someone claim to follow Christ but consider the books he clearly believed contained divine messages in the first century, as not having divine words in it today.


When did I ever say I believe that? I never did. I SAID: we canonize only the life and teachings of Jesus Christ.


MEN SPOKE FROM GOD

Those that claim to follow the words of Jesus alone but exclude most of the Greek scripture find themselves in even more of a contradictory position. They accept the words of Jesus written by a human in one book but reject the words of Jesus in another.
It's not because they are written by a human that is the problem. The problem is, they are not the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. In fact, let me help you. I'll make your point better for you than you are doing yourself: Why do we accept the Gospel of Thomas and not the Gospel of Nicodemus, or Infancy I and II. That's the question you really should be asking.

In the case of the book of The ACTS of the APOSTLES, arguably written by Luke who wrote the gospel. But if they were to accept Acts (sometimes refered to as "the fifth gospel") , they would be obliged to accept Jesus commission of the Apostle Paul.
Personally, I believe the writer of Luke wrote his Gospel to refute the so-called "apostles." I think he wrote acts for the same reason. I think he wrote those to show just how far off base, for instance, Peter had strayed from the teachings Jesus gave during the Last Supper. When you compare what is going on in Acts with the Gospel of Luke, it is like reading the Gospel of Mark on a park bench at the Vatican Palace. You ask yourself: How in the hell did one come from the other?

CONCLUSION: Those that refuse to recognise both the Hebrew canon and the Christian Greek scriptures as being of divine origin paint themselves into the uncomfortable corner of failing to follow the example of Christ who evidently reccognised the Hebrew bible as authoritative, failing to accept all the available words of Christ (as recorded outside of the gospels) and implying that Gods words lose value and relevance with the passing of time. An unenviable position to be in for anyone attempting to live up to the Christian calling and certainly no basis for claiming to be true religion.
You're right, Veridicans aren't like classic Christians. One could argue whether we are really Christians at all. I'm not even sure. But, in the strictest sense of the word, we follow Christ, so we are Christ-ian. The more you point out that we are outside of Christendom--which is over with anyway--the more I will tend to agree with you on that point. Christians--all Christians except Veridicans--follow the Old Testament and the letters of the New Testament.

But I will say, it's kind of rich coming from a JW who's religion as mangled just about every Christian concept there is, including their own translation of the Holy Bible. But I don't really care about that. JWs are part of the Church age, and it is finished.
All for Christ and only for Christ! :wave:

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Re: Why not just Jesus?

Post #118

Post by Veridican »

Miles wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:16 pm
Yet you're compelled to respond to my post. How sweet. :hug:
Of course.
All for Christ and only for Christ! :wave:

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Re: Why not just Jesus?

Post #119

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

Miles wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:38 pm
cms wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 2:50 pm
Miles wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:15 am The lack of convincing evidence for the existence of god.
Miles, I think everyone has a god-meaning an authority that you live by. For example, if someone told you to kill babies, would you do it? From your previous responses, I'd say that the authority (god) that you live by says no. There are obviously laws that control things in our world for example, the law of gravity. Is there a natural law ( God) that mankind is supposed to live by?
Prove it. Prove that there's "a god-meaning an authority that [ I ] live by." Heck! Simply prove there's any god at all. All I've seen are claims of his existence, and not a solitary piece of convincing evidence. Throw me a bone here: one solid, incontrovertible, piece of evidence is all I ask


.
There are many gods. Most having to do with the worship of demons, the children of the heavenly watchers, who preach to eat the tree of the knowledge good and evil and determine between what is good and evil from their own twisted hearts. You can follow your false prophet, in the form of Marx, the false prophets Paul or Mohammad, but in the end, their authority rests with the state, whether the Muslim state, the Marxist state, or the Roman/Christian state, etc. In the current environment, the ruling authorities are leaning more in the godless Marxist realm, whereas the godless try and form the state into godless/lawless state, where in the end, they will all end in destruction. The proof is in the pudding. The more Progressive, lawless, godless, a state is, the closer they are to destruction, in terms of natural, or man-made events. The more Progressive, lawless, cities, such as Portland, Los Angelos, New York, the closer they are to collapse. On the other hand, one can repent and turn from lawlessness, and keep the Law given by God, and hope to "escape" the coming "destruction". When "destruction" comes, it is too late for the lawless to admit to their demented actions. The best they can hope and pray for is a quick end, but that is not assured (Revelation 9:6). I don't know what else I can tell you.

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Re: Why not just Jesus?

Post #120

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

Veridican wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:23 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:28 am SHOULD CHRISTIANS LIMIT THEIR CANON TO THE GOSPELS?

Certain groups and individuals reject much of the traditional bible canon and argue that Christians should only accept the gospels and the book of Revelation as being of Divine origin.
Uh, yeah, JW, that would be me and my Church. And we're the only ones who believe that way. There has never been another church like us in the two thousand years of Christianity. We are the first. It's called the Veridican Church. But then, you do know that already, right?


While on a superficial level this might seem logical, it is in reality a decidedly anti-Christ position that conflicts both with the spirit and the letter if Jesus own teachings.

HAVE YOU NOT READ?

Jesus was often asked for his opinion on various topics, he consistently refrained from simply stating his own opinion, although he of course had the authority to do so. What he did was refer to the Hebrew canon citing it as the authoritative conclusion on matters. If Jesus accepted the Hebrew Canon as authoritive, how can those that claim to follow him, do otherwise?
Because we only follow Jesus Christ. If Jesus refers to the Psalms, we go and read the Psalms. Fine, but we don't "canonize" the Psalms, because we only follow the life and teachings of Jesus Christ.
MATTHEW 19: 3-4

Then some Pharisees came and tested Him by asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason?” 4 Jesus answered, “ Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ 5and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’?
THE WORD OF GOD ENDURES FOREVER (Isaiah 40:8)

These Christians also confuse not being under law (subject to the Mosaic law) with degrading the law and the writings of the Prophets. The writings of God's Prophets were not mere human endeavors, but again and again they assured their readers they were conveying the words of God Almighty. If this was indeed the case, then those words can never be degraded, devalued or viewed as outdated. Whether they apply directly to the Christian era or not they remain forever the inspired words of divine origin and as such have their place within the bible canon.
Jesus changed everything. His life and teachings changed our relationship to God. It changed the covenant between man and God. He brought us "atonement." It is irrelevant if Leviticus is the word of God or not. God is only present to mankind through Jesus Christ. A Veridican follows ONLY Jesus Christ. This is not a hard concept to grasp. And it is a stand. The Church age is over. The tribulation era is coming. Veridicanism is the true religion of Jesus Christ. It's the only thing that is going to work going forward. You could call it something else! But the concept of Veridicanism is all that's left. The Church age ended in 1993.

ALL SCRIPTURE IS ABOUT CHRIST

Those that reject the Hebrew canon make the same fundemental error as the Pharisees in Jesus day; namely they failed to understand that ALL their scripture was in fact pointing to and about the Messiah. Think of the occassion when Jesus read from the scroll of Isaiah. That passage spoke of God (YHWH) anointing his servant to bring good news to people. Jesus concluded its fulfillment was found in him.
I agree, the Old Testament prophesies Jesus Christ. So what? Jesus has come. We have Jesus now; we don't really need Isaiah except as historical reference and biblical context.
How can someone claim to follow Christ but consider the books he clearly believed contained divine messages in the first century, as not having divine words in it today.


When did I ever say I believe that? I never did. I SAID: we canonize only the life and teachings of Jesus Christ.


MEN SPOKE FROM GOD

Those that claim to follow the words of Jesus alone but exclude most of the Greek scripture find themselves in even more of a contradictory position. They accept the words of Jesus written by a human in one book but reject the words of Jesus in another.
It's not because they are written by a human that is the problem. The problem is, they are not the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. In fact, let me help you. I'll make your point better for you than you are doing yourself: Why do we accept the Gospel of Thomas and not the Gospel of Nicodemus, or Infancy I and II. That's the question you really should be asking.

In the case of the book of The ACTS of the APOSTLES, arguably written by Luke who wrote the gospel. But if they were to accept Acts (sometimes refered to as "the fifth gospel") , they would be obliged to accept Jesus commission of the Apostle Paul.
Personally, I believe the writer of Luke wrote his Gospel to refute the so-called "apostles." I think he wrote acts for the same reason. I think he wrote those to show just how far off base, for instance, Peter had strayed from the teachings Jesus gave during the Last Supper. When you compare what is going on in Acts with the Gospel of Luke, it is like reading the Gospel of Mark on a park bench at the Vatican Palace. You ask yourself: How in the hell did one come from the other?

CONCLUSION: Those that refuse to recognise both the Hebrew canon and the Christian Greek scriptures as being of divine origin paint themselves into the uncomfortable corner of failing to follow the example of Christ who evidently reccognised the Hebrew bible as authoritative, failing to accept all the available words of Christ (as recorded outside of the gospels) and implying that Gods words lose value and relevance with the passing of time. An unenviable position to be in for anyone attempting to live up to the Christian calling and certainly no basis for claiming to be true religion.
You're right, Veridicans aren't like classic Christians. One could argue whether we are really Christians at all. I'm not even sure. But, in the strictest sense of the word, we follow Christ, so we are Christ-ian. The more you point out that we are outside of Christendom--which is over with anyway--the more I will tend to agree with you on that point. Christians--all Christians except Veridicans--follow the Old Testament and the letters of the New Testament.

But I will say, it's kind of rich coming from a JW who's religion as mangled just about every Christian concept there is, including their own translation of the Holy Bible. But I don't really care about that. JWs are part of the Church age, and it is finished.
Keep in mind that one of the main moral imperatives of the Veridican church is to financially support that church, very similar to a principal moral imperative of the JW church. I don't know, but that sounds a little self-serving. But if you can promise me 72 good looking virgins with souls as white as snow, then just reply with your name and address, and I can decide if the cost is worth the promise.

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