Why not just Jesus?

[Veridican]

Do you ever wonder why, if we are Christians, we don't just follow the Gospels? Like, they would be our only canon of scripture, everything else would just be for historical reference, wisdom, or good advice, but we would be followers of Jesus ONLY. He would be our only teacher. Our canon then would be Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Revelation. Why has there never even been a cult, or church, or denomination like that in all of history?

[JehovahsWitness]

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

I only call one thing the Word of God, and that's Jesus Christ.

Regarless of what you call scripture, do you view the writings of Moses, Daniel or any of the other PROPHETS as essentially differently from the writings of the Apostles and their associated? (the people that wrote down all you know about Jesus in the first place)?

That said, Veridicans canonize the following books. That means we consider them the scriptures that God intends for us to use in our religion: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Revelation, Thomas, and the Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ. That's it. ...

Jesus taught by example as well as words, since Jesus quoted extensively from the Hebrew bible, holding it up as the ultimate authority, why would anyone claiming to follow his teaching exclude from their canaon what he (Jesus)obviously included?

JOHN 17:17

"Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth

[onewithhim]

I think I understand what you're saying. We shouldn't follow what current religious teachers are saying, like the Pope or some television preacher....I agree.

Why not? Why not follow Pope Francis and Jimmy Swaggart?

But Paul and the writers of the Gospels were picked by Jesus himself to impart his sayings to humanity.

Well, yeah, the writers of the Gospels--they're telling us the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. But Paul is telling us Paul's teachings of Jesus Christ. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but Paul was a man, an early Christian, and a traveling preacher. Why are his letters any different than Billy Graham's?

Why would we want to ignore them?

I don't. I read Paul's writings all the time. But, and I will say this again, there is only one Word of God. That's Jesus Christ. There is only one teacher I'm going to follow, that's Jesus Christ. There's only one way to eternal life with God and Christ, and that is Jesus Christ.

Didn't Jesus choose them for a reason?

Sure. The same way he chose Billy Graham.

Now why do you say Jesus chose Billy Graham? I could tell you many reasons why He would not have. But He chose Paul and we have the record of it. So why would you ignore that? If Jesus chose Paul, then wouldn't you want to listen to him? Paul was led by the Holy Spirit, and that means he was following what Jesus wanted him to do. I do not believe that Billy Graham, Jimmy Swaggart or Pope Francis were/are being led by Holy Spirit. You apparently aren't tuned in to the kinds of people Jesus finds acceptable.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Veridican in post #87]

You always dance around a question without answering it very thoroughly.

Of course I honour and serve the Father, Jehovah. I was just emphasizing Jesus' inferiority to Jehovah by pointing out that he called Jehovah "my Father and my God." (John 20:17)

[onewithhim]

I agree! So why do you basically ignore Jehovah anyway, despite Him being Jesus' beloved Father and God? How can we know God without knowing the Father?

In all of this, with everything I've said, how do derive the idea that I ignore God?

Because you say "Jesus only."

He is not God. (John 17:3)

[Veridican]

Regarless of what you call scripture, do view the writings of Moses, Daniel or any of the other PROPHETS as essentially differently from the writings of the Apostles and their associated? (the people that wrote down all you know about Jesus in the first place)?

No, no. I know about Jesus from the Gospels. Jesus found himself in the Jewish scriptures. That's great. That's historical reference and background. But Jesus is my teacher, not Moses, not the prophets--Jesus.

Jesus taught by example as well as words, since Jesus quoted extensively from the Hebrew bible, holding it up as the ultimate authority, why would anyone claiming to follow his teaching exclude from their canaon what he (Jesus)obviously included?

Jesus held himself and his own words up as the ultimate authority. How can you not know this? Haven't you ever read the Gospels yourself?

JOHN 17:17

"Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth

Jesus wasn't talking about the Bible there, and you know it. There was no Bible, and he wasn't talking about the Old Testament. He was talking about God's direct communication to him and through him. Besides, that verse is saying that "truth" is God's word. It actually has nothing to do with scripture.

[Veridican]

You apparently aren't tuned in to the kinds of people Jesus finds acceptable.

So, you speak for Jesus? Do you? Because if you tell me you're Christ, then you will sound like a Veridican to me, and I will listen to a Veridican. I will listen to someone who has been reborn into the substance of Christ. But if you're just some sheep of some religion you follow, and you don't even know why you follow it, then I don't accept your judgements of me. Because I am Christ. I'm not Jesus Christ. I'm not "He." But I'm one with Christ. I consume his body and blood and I become what he is. I sit in his throne with him, and he sits in God's throne with him. Are you part of that royal family? If so, then you have a voice at the table. If not, then you don't even belong in the room. Do you understand what I'm saying to you?

So, what is it? You want to get your last word in before you bow out? Is that it? You want to tell me how Jesus rejects me? Is that it? Well, fine. You can make a strong case for it, but you better have what it takes to back that up. You better be Christ--or I don't hear you at all.

[Veridican]

Because you say "Jesus only."

He is not God. (John 17:3)

Okay, no, you're right. Technically, I don't follow God outside of Christ. God to me is only what I see in Jesus Christ. When I was in the occult, I followed only God. I was a witch, a sorcerer. I've written and published two books on the subject. God was still there--just like he was there with the Magi who found Jesus in Matthew 2. But that way does not work for human beings. Human beings DO NOT follow God directly. Oh, in the new age they believe they do. In witchcraft they believe they do, and they end up at a dead end. Because God has only made one way to find Him and understand Him and that's Jesus Christ. A sorcerer prays to the Divine directly, but all he finds is a cold cosmological force. He may conjure demons and think he is in a league with them or that they care about him, but he is deceived, and used by them instead. All witchcraft, sorcery, and new age spirituality leads to a dead end. It's not horrific, it's not like horror movies, it's not like anything even interesting, it's just a dead end. You think you're close to God, and you wake up and realize you don't know who he is at all. Because human beings can't know God directly. Our minds won't handle it--can't handle it. There is only one way to God--Jesus Christ.

How's that for a long paragraph?

[cms]

If not everything in the bible is scripture wouldn't you have to cherry pick the scriptural stuff out of it all?

Miles, Jesus already did that. He took out the tares and kept what was true.

AND, as I've pointed out, he also said "All Scripture . . . is profitable for teaching, for rebuking, for correcting, for training in righteousness."

Even though the Old Testament contains errors, we can learn from other people's mistakes.
For example: "Do not add or subtract from the word." Changing the word of God was one of Israel's problems. And now we know why we shouldn't do this.

[Miles]

If not everything in the bible is scripture wouldn't you have to cherry pick the scriptural stuff out of it all?

Miles, Jesus already did that. He took out the tares and kept what was true.

So, exactly what did Jesus keep? You are aware, are you not, that Jesus didn't write a thing. Or is your definition of "scripture" simply all the red-letter ink in the NT purporting to be Jesus's words? If so, go along and play with your new definition. I and millions of others will stick to its current and most popular usage.


.

[JehovahsWitness]

JOHN 17:17

"Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth

Jesus wasn't talking about the Bible there, and you know it. There was no Bible...

Firstly please do not presume to tell me what I know, however feel free to ask me or share what you know. I thank you kindly.

I did not say "bible" (although there is nothing inaccurate about that since the word "bible" (biblia) means collection of books), I said "scripture" which means writings.

As it happens I believe Jesus here was indeed referring to Hebrew scripture. Support for this conclusion below...

MATTHEW 19: 3-4

Then some Pharisees came and tested Him by asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason?” 4 Jesus answered, “ Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ 5and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’?

Jesus could have readily and accurately said, "Did you not hear what *I* said " ? from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female" and perhaps added "*I* know, *I* was there!" He didnt, he used Hebrew scripture as the basis for his response which both validate it and raised it above the level of historically interesting opinion of Moses, to an indiscutable religious truth.

JOHN 17:17

"Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth

... He was talking about God's direct communication to him and through him. Besides, that verse is saying that "truth" is God's word

.... AND communicated to the PROPHETS to be written down for the direction and spiritual edification of mankind.

... that verse is saying that "truth" is God's word.

That is exactly my point : That which is communicate from God -> through Jesus --> to his human servants = DIVINE TRUTH. If those servants are inspired to write those divine truths down on papier we have inspired words of truth.

... It actually has nothing to do with scripture.

That is incorrect. See above.


JW