"Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

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"Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #1

Post by Miles »

.


To Note: This OP has came about more as an eye-opener about Jehovah's Witnesses rather than any attempt at disparagement. Recognizing that every religion, denomination, and congregation has the right to operate as best it sees fit under its particular guidelines, my presentation and comments are strictly the result of surprise and befuddlement after watching the video, Shun Your Family.


I've heard of disfellowship among Jehovah's Witnesses before, but never realized the extent it goes to as a disloyalty test. So, what is disfellowship?

"Disfellowship:
To 'remove the wicked
man' or woman from
the congregation
Watchtower 2011 Jul 15 p.23 simplified edition"

"Jehovah's Witnesses are disfellowshipped for practices such as disagreeing with Watchtower doctrine, smoking or fornication, if judged by the congregation elders as unrepentant. A disfellowshipped person is to be shunned by all family and friends, usually for the remainder of their life, and go through tremendous emotional suffering. Whilst Scriptural precedence limits association with wrongdoers, Watchtower application of disfellowshipping seriously deviates from Bible guidelines.
source


A particularly disturbing comment in the video below:

"We have to put him [Jehovah] before a father, a mother, and even our children if they're disfellowshipped. And if the disfellowshipping of our family is not bad enough, loyalty to Jehovah may mean we even have to endure reproach. We may be hurting because, 'I can't, can't talk to my family member."
(time mark 2:41)


....................


What really amazes me is that the organization refuses to take any responsibility whatsoever for a member becoming "wicked." Yet it does refuse to, and even tells its members refuse to as well. From the video:

"Now we're gonna mention three things NOT to do, and two of them are games not to play.

The first one is, don't play the blame game. Resist self-blame. We may think that we're at fault somehow. Remember that Jehovah holds sinners responsible for their actions. Even young ones that are disfellowshipped . . it's because their relationship with Jehovah was weak.

Avoid the "if only games." "If only we would have preached more, if only I would have talked to them more." "If only we would have done more in the organization. If only. . .If only . . . Don't do that to ourselves
"


It's as if every mother, father, and JW preacher knew exactly how to get through to their children and other members, and actually did so. Think that's true? I don't. I've never heard a JW preacher speak, but I have heard a fair number of other Christian ministers, several of whom were so abysmal they couldn't convince a soaking wet dog to come in out of the rain. Thing is, from time to time we all fail in our relationships with others, and despite the JW philosophy, it isn't always the other guy's fault. Sometimes it's our own, in whole or in part. As willing to listen as a Jehovah's Witness may be it's only reasonable to acknowledge the possible failure of parents and preachers to get through. We don't all come with the same set of responsive abilities. Some of us simply have to be approached from another angle before the message sinks in. So for the sake of those Jehovah's Witnesses who are on the brink of becoming one of the "wicked," as well as their families, I think it would be nice if the organization changed their blame game and acknowledged the part it plays in the failures among its membership.


SO: Do you think I have a point here or not?

.

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #251

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:20 am
DA? Dissassocate yourself... how? If you mean formally request (by approaching the elders) that you no longer wish be counted as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, then that has been discussed.
With all due respect, JW...it seems as if you are purposely dodging my question...even the two post references you provided (below); neither one addresses my question.

For example, I am STILL seeing "disfellowshipped" in the title of the referenced post, when my question is nothing about disfellowshipping at all

And this is at least the second time that you've done this (that I am aware of).

Now true, a lot has been said on here pertaining to this subject, and as much as I am following this thread, I may have missed some things...but I doubt it.

All I wanted to know is; if a disassociated (DA) person was shunned by an active JW member, would the active JW member be discouraged by organizational leadership for not acting in accordance to JW policy on "interactions with disassociated people" (or whatever you want to call it).

Yes or no?

If the answer is yes, then fine :approve:

If no, then we've got problems.




Can a Jehovah's Witness join another church without being disfellowshipped?
viewtopic.php?p=1066416#p1066416

Is it true some people make formal requests to be shunned?
viewtopic.php?p=1066724#p1066724
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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #252

Post by JehovahsWitness »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:46 am
All I wanted to know is; if a disassociated (DA) person was shunned by an active JW member, would the active JW member be discouraged by organizational leadership for not acting in accordance to JW policy on "interactions with disassociated people" (or whatever you want to call it).

Yes or no?

That depends on what you mean by "disassociated" ... Do you know? Do you mean
- stops attending the Jehovahs Witness church and (6 months later) is no longer counted as a member.

...or

- making a formal request to be treated as disfellowshipped according to JW policy.

Do you know which of the above you are asking about?

Read the link if you're not sure- I have invested enough in this thread to not to wish to repeat myself.
viewtopic.php?p=1066724#p1066724
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Feb 27, 2022 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #253

Post by onewithhim »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:13 am
onewithhim wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 1:51 pm You say that our organization is man-made and you deride our belief that Jehovah has always had an organization, and you say other derogatory things.
*Sigh* I know, I know. :(

Forgive me for my elevated tone. I respect you, a lot. You know I do.

However, I have an allegiance with Jesus Christ, and part of the allegiance is to speak out against false religion...and with that, a few eggs needs to get cracked in order to make the omelet.

I get told that my lord and savior is a walking "Zombie" (which is kind of funny :lol: ).

I get told that I worship a magical sky being.

I get told that I might as well believe in santa claus, the tooth fairy, and the easter bunny.

I get told that my God is a "bad parent" for sacrificing his son (which is kind of funny :lol: )

I get criticized by my own people (African descent) for believing in a "white Jesus", and that my religion is the "white man's" religion...and all sorts of other nonsense.

So, it comes with the territory.
onewithhim wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 1:51 pm We believe Christ is our reigning King and that he will rule the whole planet someday soon. How much more honor can we give to Christ? You say that we should believe in Christ, and we do. What else can you say that would seem to be a better place to go?
.
If I have to go through an organization for Christ to be my king, then apparently Christ' sacrifice wasn't enough...but the Scripture tells us that it is enough.

So obviously, what you say and what the Bible say are two different things and that is where the problem will always lie.
You listed things that people attack you with. Those same things are said to us! Exactly. I got that stuff today in fact from a close friend of the family. Now, I would say that an organization doesn't have to be thrown into the mix to appreciate Christ's sacrifice.....but why wouldn't I adhere to the WT organization when I believe that Jehovah has always had an organization and it went from the nation of Israel (Isaiah 43:10) to the Christian congregation (I Peter 2:9,10), and now the extension of that congregation, Jehovah's Witnesses. We believe that Christ is also the chief Witness of Jehovah (Revelation 1:5) and that he heads up the organization that witnesses for Jehovah's name. Why would I spurn the organization that Jesus is the head of? Kindly read John chapter 17.

One other point: Jesus was not white. That is ridiculous. He was a swarthy Middle Eastern Jew who undoubtedly had dark wavy hair and brown eyes. Your criticizers are ill-informed.

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #254

Post by onewithhim »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:33 am
onewithhim wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 2:30 pm [Replying to tam in post #221]

We have gone to Jesus Christ. And he has led us to his organization, an organization he has always been associated with since the days of Abraham.


See, and that is the problem right there.

Jehovah's Witnesses (forgive me for saying this), are arrogantly going around saying that they are God's chosen organization...and my question is, says who?

When God choses you, he will tell you.

You do not tell him.

And it would be nice if you can provide a Scripture where Christ leads us to an organization, which is a concept so foreign to Biblical truth, that it could only have arisen thousands of years later, long after Jesus' earthly ministry and well after the age of the apostles.

The New Testament leads readers to Christ. Not an organization.

However, the Watchtower and Tract Society and Awake magazines leads us to the organization. Not to Christ.

That is why when you look at practically any WTS or Awake magazine, you will see picture illustrations of Jehovah's Witnesses fellowshipping and/or evangelizing with people, and in their hands they will have two things..

1. A Bible.
2. The latest WTS/Awake magazine.

Why? Because the Gospel is being presented to be viewed through the LENS' of the Watchtower and Tract Society, that's why.

Sorry, but I must speak the truth.

And that is the truth.
I guess you haven't had a JW speak with you. You are way off the mark as to what we talk about to people. (You have us confused with Mormons who talk at your door about joining their organization.) We speak to people about Christ's sacrifice for us and all the things he will do in the new system of things. We bring people's attention, as well, to Jehovah (as Christ did) and how he is all powerful and indeed loving. We speak to people about the wonderful future everyone has on this planet, when they accept what Jesus did for us. The organization isn't mentioned until much later when a person exhibits some curiosity about our message. If you look at any of our letters that we are writing, earth-wide, you won't see any mentions of the WTS. Not that we are ashamed of it.....our mission is to witness for Jehovah and Jesus.

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #255

Post by 2timothy316 »

[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #214]

I have nothing for your opinion.

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #256

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

2timothy316 wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 4:21 pm [Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #214]

I have nothing for your opinion.
I agree. You have nothing.
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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #257

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Whatever the case, in asking about Jehovah's Witness policy I think this thread has been an opportunity to clarify what it is Jehovahs Witnesses do and do not practice.

That was after all what the OP was focused on.


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Mon Mar 07, 2022 2:39 am, edited 4 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #258

Post by JehovahsWitness »

LEAVING THE JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES


Something most anti-witness sites do not highlight [ * ] and few outsiders are aware of, is the fact that there are two different and distinct ways to leave the Jehovah's Witness faith. The first, a "reasonable" one if one no longer holds to the tenets of the faith (and one that most people mean when they say the word "disassociate") and the second, inhouse formal way, which amounts to a defacto request to be treated as shunned.


METHOD #1. Simpy stop going to meetings; after 6 months on will no longer be counted as a member.




METHOD#2 : A formal request for disassociation (never initiated by the organisation) but is personal request from the individual
  • Whereas disfellowshipping is an action taken by a judcial committee against unrepentant wrongdoers, disassociation is an action taken by an individual who has decided that he no longer desires to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses - "Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock"Unit 5 p. 101
Is there verifiable documented proof that some ex-witnesses formerly ask to be shunned?
viewtopic.php?p=1066724#p1066724

Can a baptised Witness that has already left the organisation be disfellowshipped?
viewtopic.php?p=1066460#p1066460






RELATED POSTS

[ * ]Why don't many ex-witness support groups emphasis that leaving does NOT equate to being shunned?
viewtopic.php?p=1066583#p1066583
To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , DISFELLOWSHIPPING / SHUNNING and ... ORGANISATIONAL INFALLIBILITY
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #259

Post by 2timothy316 »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 11:42 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 4:21 pm [Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #214]

I have nothing for your opinion.
I agree. You have nothing.
You have no scriptural backing for your argument. Only your opinion, which is worthless in a forum where the Bible holds all the cards. There is no winning a debate for a person that relies only on their opinion for truth.

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #260

Post by tam »

Peace to you all,

I thought we were done with this thread, and I'm not sure what else there is to be said, but since we're still going...
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 2:55 am
tam wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 7:02 pmThe religion is the one telling her members who they can and cannot associate with.
That is false.
No, it is true.

Otherwise you would have a choice (one that could not get you expelled and shunned if you chose mercy instead of sacrifice - mercy, which is never against the law, which God desires, and which Christ taught - in both word and deed).

Not to mention the fact that people are judged behind closed doors, then they are shunned by people who do so on command, not even knowing what the supposed 'offense' might have been. No matter how you interpret, that is not biblical. Not that it matters, because Christ df'd and shunned no one. If a person is a disciple of Christ, then it is HIS example that person is to follow.


God said, "This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him."

God never told us to listen to 'the bible' (not to mention the fact that no one listens to 'the bible' to begin with; they listen instead to various men's interpretation of the bible). God also never told us to listen to a religion.

God told us to listen to His Son. Yet SO FEW people even seem to CARE to do this. (John 14:21, notice whose commands the one who loves Christ will keep)



So far, no one has been able to provide me with the example I asked for, of Christ shunning someone. Indeed, Christ never once reprimanded (Simon) Lazarus for not casting out and shunning his sister even though she had been found guilty of a 'stoning' offense (the woman caught in adultery whom Christ saved and forgave). Instead, Lazarus is the one whom Christ loved (John 11:3, 36).

Christ also emphasized that God desires mercy, not sacrifice. (Matt 9:13; Hosea 6:6)
Christ also told us NOT to judge (lest we be judged). (Matt 7:1, 2; Luke 6:37)
Christ also said 'Let the one who is without sin cast the first stone'. That means NO ONE (then or today) is permitted to cast a stone. No one except for Christ (and of course His Father). Yet Christ chose NOT to cast a stone. Christ chose instead to do the very thing that His Father desires: to show mercy, to forgive. Christ had the right and the authority to judge that woman, and instead He forgave and showed her mercy.

He sets the example for us that we should follow. (John 13:15)

There is also no law against love... and it is LOVE that covers over a multitude of sins. (Galatians 5:22, 23; 1Peter 4:8; Proverbs 10:12)


1 CORINTHIANS 15:33

Do not be misled. Bad associations spoil useful habits.
God tells his people what is good and what is bad and leaves them the freedom to obey or not. He does not however leave them the freedom from the consequences of disobedience. Those in a position of leadership in the true church teach its members what God says and enforce Christian law as authorized by Him.
The TRUE Church has ONE leader: Christ Jah'eshua. (matt 23:10)

As for the whole 'enforcing Christian law' nonsense... the LAW is love. That is the law that is written upon the hearts of those who are in the new covenant. That is the law from God, from the beginning. That is WHY there is no law against it. So if someone chooses to show mercy instead of shunning someone, and they do this out of love, they are keeping the law. And EVEN IF they erred in what they chose to do, LOVE COVERS OVER A MULTITUDE OF SINS.

It is not about fear and judgment (as yours and other religions make it out to be). It is about faith, love, mercy, joy, peace.



1 CORINTHIANS 5:12, 13

For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.”
Paul is also the person who LATER said (after having learned what was TRUE, what CHRIST taught on the matter):

Therefore let us stop judging one another. (Romans 14:13)

And it is THAT LATER STATEMENT that is in line with what Christ taught.



But a person can choose to follow Paul (even though Paul was a man who had to learn like any other man), or 'the bible', or a religion.

I am going to follow Christ. He is my Master, my Teacher, my Lord. Christ - not Paul, nor the bible, nor a religion - gave His life for me. Christ - not Paul, not the bible, not a religion - is the TRUTH (and the WAY and the LIFE). Christ - not Paul, nor the the bible, nor a religion - is the ONE who saves.



...because their religion properly conformes to bible law, Jehovah's Witnesses are not free to continue a friendship and association with a df'd (or da'd) person WITHOUT risk of being [facing God ordained disipline].
Please show where Christ (or anyone) said:

Make sure you shun someone who does not shun people who are df'd (or da'd).


Yes that'is correct. Note ...
GALATIANS 6:7 - New International Version

Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows


But shouldn't people be free to associated with those wicked persons without the fear of being disfellowshipped?

What one believes SHOULD happen depends on if one recognises the bible as the word of Almighty God or not.
1 - if you're going to judge someone else as being wicked, then you might want to take another look at Matt 7:3-5 (maybe even take a gander at verses 1 and 2).

2 - Please post the scripture which states associating with someone who has been df'd (or da'd) warrants one's own df'ing and shunning as a consequence?

3 - Christ - not the bible - is the Word of Almighty God. Even the bible attests to that truth.

So yes, what one believes should happen MAY well depend upon who or what one recognizes as the Word of God. (John 1:14; Rev 19:13)


May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear, so as to hear the truth of these matters from the Truth (Christ Jaheshua). May anyone who thirsts and anyone who wishes, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life."


Peace again to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
- Non-religious Christian spirituality

- For Christ (who is the Spirit)

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