"Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

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Miles
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"Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #1

Post by Miles »

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To Note: This OP has came about more as an eye-opener about Jehovah's Witnesses rather than any attempt at disparagement. Recognizing that every religion, denomination, and congregation has the right to operate as best it sees fit under its particular guidelines, my presentation and comments are strictly the result of surprise and befuddlement after watching the video, Shun Your Family.


I've heard of disfellowship among Jehovah's Witnesses before, but never realized the extent it goes to as a disloyalty test. So, what is disfellowship?

"Disfellowship:
To 'remove the wicked
man' or woman from
the congregation
Watchtower 2011 Jul 15 p.23 simplified edition"

"Jehovah's Witnesses are disfellowshipped for practices such as disagreeing with Watchtower doctrine, smoking or fornication, if judged by the congregation elders as unrepentant. A disfellowshipped person is to be shunned by all family and friends, usually for the remainder of their life, and go through tremendous emotional suffering. Whilst Scriptural precedence limits association with wrongdoers, Watchtower application of disfellowshipping seriously deviates from Bible guidelines.
source


A particularly disturbing comment in the video below:

"We have to put him [Jehovah] before a father, a mother, and even our children if they're disfellowshipped. And if the disfellowshipping of our family is not bad enough, loyalty to Jehovah may mean we even have to endure reproach. We may be hurting because, 'I can't, can't talk to my family member."
(time mark 2:41)


....................


What really amazes me is that the organization refuses to take any responsibility whatsoever for a member becoming "wicked." Yet it does refuse to, and even tells its members refuse to as well. From the video:

"Now we're gonna mention three things NOT to do, and two of them are games not to play.

The first one is, don't play the blame game. Resist self-blame. We may think that we're at fault somehow. Remember that Jehovah holds sinners responsible for their actions. Even young ones that are disfellowshipped . . it's because their relationship with Jehovah was weak.

Avoid the "if only games." "If only we would have preached more, if only I would have talked to them more." "If only we would have done more in the organization. If only. . .If only . . . Don't do that to ourselves
"


It's as if every mother, father, and JW preacher knew exactly how to get through to their children and other members, and actually did so. Think that's true? I don't. I've never heard a JW preacher speak, but I have heard a fair number of other Christian ministers, several of whom were so abysmal they couldn't convince a soaking wet dog to come in out of the rain. Thing is, from time to time we all fail in our relationships with others, and despite the JW philosophy, it isn't always the other guy's fault. Sometimes it's our own, in whole or in part. As willing to listen as a Jehovah's Witness may be it's only reasonable to acknowledge the possible failure of parents and preachers to get through. We don't all come with the same set of responsive abilities. Some of us simply have to be approached from another angle before the message sinks in. So for the sake of those Jehovah's Witnesses who are on the brink of becoming one of the "wicked," as well as their families, I think it would be nice if the organization changed their blame game and acknowledged the part it plays in the failures among its membership.


SO: Do you think I have a point here or not?

.

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #231

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 5:04 pm
tam wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:58 pm "Shepherd the Flock of God", pages 60-61:
...brazen conduct may be involved in the following if the wrongdoer has an insolent, contemptuous attitude made evident by a practice of these things: Willful, continued, unnecessary association with disfellowshipped nonrelatives despite repeated counsel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%2 ... discipline
.

Thank you for the reference. So, as I said, conversations even intimate sexual relationships, can be continued with a disfellowshipped person but not if such displayed a "insolent, contemptuous attitude" for bible standards.




JWw
No, perhaps read it again. The contemptuous attitude is made evidenced BY the practice of willful continued unnecessary association with df'd non-relatives. In other words, the wilful, continued, unnecessary association with df'd non-relatives despite repeated counsel (not to associate with them) is what is considered the insolent, contemptuous attitude.


(It is obviously not talking about a sexual relationship between a husband and wife).


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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #232

Post by tam »

Peace again.


Before we get bogged down in minutia:

Are jws permitted by the religion to continue to have friendship and association with ANY df'd person they choose?

Or do you have to shun them? (not counting necessary family business or household members... aka spouses, or parents and minor children)
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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #233

Post by Eloi »

There are some important biblical principles that some "Christians" consider "minutia" ... WE DO NOT.

2 John 8 Look out for yourselves, so that you do not lose the things we have worked to produce, but that you may obtain a full reward. 9 Everyone who pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. The one who does remain in this teaching is the one who has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. 11 For the one who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works.

1 Cor. 5:9 In my letter I wrote you to stop keeping company with sexually immoral people, 10 not meaning entirely with the sexually immoral people of this world or the greedy people or extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.”

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #234

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
Eloi wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 5:51 pm There are some important biblical principles that some "Christians" consider "minutia" ... WE DO NOT.
From my post (the only one that mentions minutia), I meant getting bogged down in unrelated information that is designed to prevaricate or avoid a question or point. My reference to minutia was not referring to biblical principles or to any of Christ's teachings.

Just sayin'.
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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #235

Post by Eloi »

tam wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 6:01 pm Peace to you,
Eloi wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 5:51 pm There are some important biblical principles that some "Christians" consider "minutia" ... WE DO NOT.
From my post (the only one that mentions minutia), I meant getting bogged down in unrelated information that is designed to prevaricate or avoid a question or point. My reference to minutia was not referring to biblical principles or to any of Christ's teachings.

Just sayin'.
And then, what is the part you do not understand of the biblical principles that I quoted above?

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #236

Post by tam »

tam wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:51 pm Peace again to you all,

I wonder if someone can provide an example of Christ shunning someone? Including those people the religion (at that time) considered to be unclean (lepers, tax collectors, prostitutes, the woman brought to him for adultery, etc.)?

His family shunned Him ("the son of man has no place to lay his head"), for a time. Religious leaders in those days cast people out of the synagogues for accepting and being faithful to Him as the Messiah, which went against their decrees. Why is THAT the example that people are following, instead of the example that Christ set Himself?
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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #237

Post by Eloi »

We, Jehovah's Witnesses, are really worry about practicing what we should, based on the biblical principles. We do not need other opinion but God's opinion in his written word. We act to please Him, because the Judge that He Himself appointed is the one who will judge us.

2 John 8 Look out for yourselves, so that you do not lose the things we have worked to produce, but that you may obtain a full reward. 9 Everyone who pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. The one who does remain in this teaching is the one who has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. 11 For the one who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works.

1 Cor. 5:9 In my letter I wrote you to stop keeping company with sexually immoral people, 10 not meaning entirely with the sexually immoral people of this world or the greedy people or extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.”

We do not practice biblical principles based on men's opinions. We can determine for ourselves, without the help of other religionists who don't even know how to deal with their own problems themselves.

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #238

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:46 pm
[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #217]

Jehovahs Witnesses are free to meet up with whoever they wish and develop or withdraw from any relationships (frienships) they see fit.
But that is not true, is it?
tam wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 5:05 pm ... you are not free to associate with whomever you want (such as a person who is df'd or da'd).


ARE JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES FREE TO CHOOSE WHO THEY ASSOCIATE WITH?

Yes they are. Jehovah's Witnesses are not MK Ultra mind control victims, they do not have a policing system, and are taught to make decisions based on their own bible trained consciences. They are free to do as they please in every aspect of their lives but they are not free from the consequences of their decisions. Nobody is.


But since they can be disfellowshipped for going against organisational rules doesn't that mean they are not really free to choose to obey or not?

The above question is prompted by a basic misconception of what freedom (and Christian freedom in particular ) actually is. Freedom does not equate to freedom from law or consequence.
1 PETER 2:16 - International Standard Version

Live like free people, and do not use your freedom as an excuse for doing evil. Instead, be God's servants

But doesnt the existence of a leadership and a judicial system negate being a slave of Christ?

No, the bible pattern mandates a leadership judging congregational matters and expulsing from the Christian community those that show blatent disregard for its internal rules of conduct. Submitting to such an arrangement is the Christian expression of submitting to Christ.
MATTHEW18:17, 18

If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, regard him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.


But doesnt such an arrangement deny the person their rights and freedom to make personal decisions?

Absolutely not. Personal decisions involve looking at reality of any given situation and deciding how one is going to navigate that reality. It does not mean existing without any human authority or making decisions free from their natural consequences
To illustrate: Should a man reason: "If I cannot rob a bank without being hunted down by the police and put in jail... then I am not free!" The reality however is the robber was always free, (free to make his personal decision as to what he will or will not choose to do) and ultimately free to follow a course of action that will have him removed from society by authorised judges.
Jehovahs Witnesses conform to the rules that govern their religion because they want to. If ever they change their minds, they can exercise their freedom to leave. They are free to meet up with whoever they wish and develop or withdraw from any relationships (frienships) they see fit. If someone is disfellowshipped for unchristian behaviour they are absolutely free to associated with them every day if that is what they want and nobody can or will try to force them to stop. They are not however , free to control how others in the community will react.
tam wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 5:05 pm ... you are not free to associate with whomever you want (such as a person who is df'd or da'd).
Yes I am. It just so happens I do not WANT to associate with disfellowshipped /disassociated* persons. (See above )

*formally
CONCLUSION : "Your religion makes you ..." "Your leaders force you..." "You are not allowed to..." "you are permitted by the religion" ...are all expressions used by those that fail to understand what true Christian freedom is. The freedom to willingly and freely conform to bible law and principle from the heart.

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , DISFELLOWSHIPPING/SHUNNING and ... ORGANISATIONAL INFALLIBILITY
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Feb 27, 2022 5:28 am, edited 7 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #239

Post by tam »

[Replying to Eloi in post #235]

See some of the following threads and posts on shunning (and things people get shunned for):

viewtopic.php?p=895956#p895956

viewtopic.php?p=1003949#p1003949
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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #240

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 6:17 pm
tam wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 5:05 pm ... you are not free to associate with whomever you want (such as a person who is df'd or da'd).
ARE JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES FREE TO DO AS THEY PLEASE?

Yes they are. Jehovah's Witnesses are not MK Ultra mind control victims, they do not have a policing system, and are taught to make decisions based on their own bible trained consciences. They are free to do as they please in every aspect of their lives but they are not free from the consequences of their decisions. Nobody is.


But since they can be disfellowshipped for going against organisational rules doesn't that mean they are not really free to choose to obey or not?

The above question is prompted by a basic misconception of what freedom (and Christian freedom in particular ) actually is. Freedom does not equate to freedom from law or consequence.
So then what were you going on about when you were complaining about having your rights denied here:
Why should individual Jehovahs Witnesses be denied the rights every atheist, agnostic and Christian that has never belonged to an organised religion has, namely to choose their associated and friends? Why are Jehovahs Witnesses the only people on earth that have to forfeit that right to choose their own friends for fear of being stigmatized?
See this is what I meant when I was referring to getting bogged down in minutia. We are now getting a definition on what it means to be free, prevaricating away from the point that a person is not free to continue a friendship and association with a df'd (or da'd) person WITHOUT risk of being df'd themselves. The religion is the one telling her members who they can and cannot associate with.

(obviously you are physically free to obey the rules and the religion or not... just as a person is physically free to break the law of the land or not. Who suggested or even thought otherwise?)



Peace again.
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