"Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

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Miles
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"Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

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Post by Miles »

.


To Note: This OP has came about more as an eye-opener about Jehovah's Witnesses rather than any attempt at disparagement. Recognizing that every religion, denomination, and congregation has the right to operate as best it sees fit under its particular guidelines, my presentation and comments are strictly the result of surprise and befuddlement after watching the video, Shun Your Family.


I've heard of disfellowship among Jehovah's Witnesses before, but never realized the extent it goes to as a disloyalty test. So, what is disfellowship?

"Disfellowship:
To 'remove the wicked
man' or woman from
the congregation
Watchtower 2011 Jul 15 p.23 simplified edition"

"Jehovah's Witnesses are disfellowshipped for practices such as disagreeing with Watchtower doctrine, smoking or fornication, if judged by the congregation elders as unrepentant. A disfellowshipped person is to be shunned by all family and friends, usually for the remainder of their life, and go through tremendous emotional suffering. Whilst Scriptural precedence limits association with wrongdoers, Watchtower application of disfellowshipping seriously deviates from Bible guidelines.
source


A particularly disturbing comment in the video below:

"We have to put him [Jehovah] before a father, a mother, and even our children if they're disfellowshipped. And if the disfellowshipping of our family is not bad enough, loyalty to Jehovah may mean we even have to endure reproach. We may be hurting because, 'I can't, can't talk to my family member."
(time mark 2:41)


....................


What really amazes me is that the organization refuses to take any responsibility whatsoever for a member becoming "wicked." Yet it does refuse to, and even tells its members refuse to as well. From the video:

"Now we're gonna mention three things NOT to do, and two of them are games not to play.

The first one is, don't play the blame game. Resist self-blame. We may think that we're at fault somehow. Remember that Jehovah holds sinners responsible for their actions. Even young ones that are disfellowshipped . . it's because their relationship with Jehovah was weak.

Avoid the "if only games." "If only we would have preached more, if only I would have talked to them more." "If only we would have done more in the organization. If only. . .If only . . . Don't do that to ourselves
"


It's as if every mother, father, and JW preacher knew exactly how to get through to their children and other members, and actually did so. Think that's true? I don't. I've never heard a JW preacher speak, but I have heard a fair number of other Christian ministers, several of whom were so abysmal they couldn't convince a soaking wet dog to come in out of the rain. Thing is, from time to time we all fail in our relationships with others, and despite the JW philosophy, it isn't always the other guy's fault. Sometimes it's our own, in whole or in part. As willing to listen as a Jehovah's Witness may be it's only reasonable to acknowledge the possible failure of parents and preachers to get through. We don't all come with the same set of responsive abilities. Some of us simply have to be approached from another angle before the message sinks in. So for the sake of those Jehovah's Witnesses who are on the brink of becoming one of the "wicked," as well as their families, I think it would be nice if the organization changed their blame game and acknowledged the part it plays in the failures among its membership.


SO: Do you think I have a point here or not?

.

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #221

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 1:47 pm
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:30 am


Ok, so if a person disassociates himself and says "I no longer believe the WTS is "the truth", and am leaving the organization entirely".

I guess the response from active witnesses will be "Oh, thats cool. We are still playing poker tonight, right? Bout 8pm? Ok, I will bring the booze".

Do you honestly think that that will happen? No. We both know that it isn't going down like that.
The bottom line is.....who loves Jehovah and who does not? We believe that anyone leaving the organization entirely does not want to serve Jehovah any longer, or have a relationship with Him. Why play poker with someone who says they are done with Jehovah and His organization? The most important part of that is leaving Jehovah. There is no place to go if we leave Him. No other religion honors Him.

1 - leaving a religion is not the same thing as leaving God. That is a lie that a religion perpetuates (and not just yours, the RCC claims the same thing, as you know from our previous discussions with RightReason).

2 - Some leave a religion because their conscience could not allow them to remain in a religion they now understand as being false (false teachings, commanding things that go against what Christ and God, even love, command). Some leave because they hear the voice of the Good Shepherd calling them out of 'her', calling them to come to Him.

3 - (to the bold and underlined)... there is no PLACE that we are to go (after leaving yours or any other religion). There is ONLY a PERSON to WHOM we are to come: Christ Jaheshua, a PERSON who DOES INDEED honor JAH. As Peter said:

“Lord, TO WHOM would we go? YOU have the words of eternal life."


That verse has been misused by religion (yours and others), but it is not AT ALL talking about a PLACE to go. It is talking about a PERSON: Christ Jaheshua. To WHOM we are to come.


Peace again to you and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #222

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to tam in post #221]

We have gone to Jesus Christ. And he has led us to his organization, an organization he has always been associated with since the days of Abraham.

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #223

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #217]

Jehovahs Witnesses are free to meet up with whoever they wish and develop or withdraw from any relationships (frienships) they see fit.
But that is not true, is it?

If a person is df'd or da'd (by their own statement or 'in absentia'), a jw MUST shun them. They don't get to make that choice for themselves. We can know this for a fact because a person who associates with someone despite being commanded to shun them (by the religion and elders) can be df'd and shunned themselves. That is an official rule (though it might be called something like 'brazen conduct', perhaps even apostasy if a person challenged the practice of shunning.)
Why should individual Jehovahs Witnesses be denied the rights every atheist, agnostic and Christian that has never belonged to an organised religion has, namely to choose their associated and friends?


You tell me. Your religion is the one denying you that right. See above.
Why are Jehovahs Witnesses the only people on earth that have to forfeit that right to choose their own friends for fear of being stigmatized?
A - See above.

B - this is a bit of a strawman

C - you are not the only people in the world commanded by their religion to shun others; nor are you the only people in the world criticized for the practice of shunning.
If you or any other atheist chooses not to associated with someone, they are not criticised (it is understood that is nobody's business but their own, and they must have their reasons)

If a scientist does the same they too are not criticised (it is understood that is nobody's business but their own, and they must have their reasons)
I can guarantee you that if atheists or any other religion (such as scientologists who have the same practice as you have), make a practice of shunning others, including their own children or parents, loved ones, they would be - AND ARE - criticized. Scientologists are criticized for that practice as we speak. I suspect the Amish are as well (though they are more out of the public eye, practicing their interpretation of being 'no part of the world'). If atheists formed a group and made it a rule that any child or member who agreed to be an atheist, but then later became a theist, should be shunned and completely cut off from their group, including parents, children, siblings, grandparents, etc... they would be criticized for it.

People who do such things even on an individual level can be criticized for it.

You are not being singled out as if it is some form of persecution for your faith.

If a Jehovah's Witnesses does the same they all hell breaks loose and they are criticised for being brainwashed automats - even though their organisation does not interfere in personal relationships that do not effect others on a congregatioral level.
A - See above.

B - Why would one person's decision to continue to have a relationship with a df'd person affect others in the congregation? Is the jw faith that weak? Should a person not have the right to be merciful if they choose? Should a person not have the right to let love surpass the 'law' (or in this case, the rules of the religion), considering that there is no law against love? Wasn't the woman brought to Christ to be stoned for adultery guilty of her offense? Did Christ say, hey she never did it, or hey, she repents... or did He say, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"?



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #224

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:46 pm Peace to you,
[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #217]

Jehovahs Witnesses are free to meet up with whoever they wish and develop or withdraw from any relationships (frienships) they see fit.
But that is not true, is it?

If a person is df'd or da'd (by their own statement or 'in absentia'), a jw MUST shun them.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
It has been explained that people who are disfellowshipped or who have asked to be removed from Jehovah's Witnesses are to be, as Jesus said, treated just like the Jews treated tax collectors and men of the Gentile nations. Those that have just lapsed for however long a time, and just don't go to meetings or witness for Christ, but have not asked to be disassociated, are not those in line to be shunned. That's it in a nutshell, and I'm amazed that the argument is still going on. It has been explained.

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #225

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:46 pm
[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #217]

Jehovahs Witnesses are free to meet up with whoever they wish and develop or withdraw from any relationships (frienships) they see fit.
But that is not true, is it?


Yes it is true.

Firstly, the context was clearly nothing to do with being disfellowshipped or a formal request to be, but rather a personal exchange between friends. NOTE We_Are_VENOM' s comment to which I was replying ....
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:30 amMore talk about disfellowshipping, when I am specifically talking about disassociating, where the only "mis-deed" would be a person who no longer considers the WTS the "truth", and to leave the organization because of it.
Again and again We_Are_VENOM has repeated he is not talking about organisational procedure he is asking about the fallout of personal decisions where no wrongdoing is committed and no leadership is involved.
And in case there was any doubt the question was regarding a personal friendship nothing To do with organisational decisions he added ...

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:30 amOk, so if a person disassociates himself and says "I no longer believe the WTS is "the truth", and am leaving the organization entirely".

I guess the response from active witnesses will be "Oh, thats cool. We are still playing poker tonight, right? Bout 8pm? Ok, I will bring the booze".

My point in response was in that context each individual does what atheists, independent Christians not attached to congregation and every other Tom, Dick and Harry like yourself does... he makes a personal decision. Further, even if one is respecting an organisational arrangement (which is not what we were talking about) Jehovahs Witnesses are still free agents, and are making decisions based on what we personally want to do.

Why should individual Jehovahs Witnesses be denied the rights every atheist, agnostic and Christian that has never belonged to an organised religion has, namely to choose their associated and friends?

tam wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:46 pmYou tell me. Your religion is the one denying you that right. See above.
No it does not. See above.

JW


To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , DISFELLOWSHIPPING/SHUNNING and ... ORGANISATIONAL INFALLIBILITY
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Feb 27, 2022 5:29 am, edited 3 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #226

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:46 pm ... a person who associates with someone despite [their being disfellowshipped] can be df'd and shunned themselves.
I am not aware that talking to a disfellowshipped person is a disfellowshipping offense.

Within the family, communication continues with ones disfellowshipped children or partner and even outside the household, although contact would be kept to a minimum, there are situations where discussions (perhaps about family matters) are necessary. An employer/employee relationship and or any other number of situations might require conversing with a disfellowshipped person, so I seriously doubt one can be disfellowshipped for simply talking with a disfellowshipped person.
tam wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:46 pm...That is an official rule ...
Well if its an official rule I presume you can present documentation to that effect from our official sources. Please do so.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #227

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:41 pm
tam wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:46 pm ... a person who associates with someone despite [their being disfellowshipped] can be df'd and shunned themselves.
I am not aware that talking to a disfellowshipped person is a disfellowshipping offense.
So much prevarication.

Are you permitted to have association, even friendship, with someone who is df'd or not?
Within the family, communication continues with ones disfellowshipped children or partner and even outside the household, although contact would be kept to a minimum, there are situations where discussions (perhaps about family matters) are necessary. An employer/employee relationship and or any other number of situations might require conversing with a disfellowshipped person, so I seriously doubt one can be disfellowshipped for simply talking with a disfellowshipped person.
Yeah, not what I'm talking about at all. I find it hard to believe that you do not know that <- you might take offense to that statement, but I think you know what I am referring to.
tam wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:46 pm...That is an official rule ...
Well if its an official rule I presume you can present documentation to that effect from our official sources. Please do so.
It is in the link that I provided earlier with regard to df'ing offenses. That is a wiki page, but the sources of the information are given at the bottom. It is from the "Shepherd the Flock of God", pages 60-61:
...brazen conduct may be involved in the following if the wrongdoer has an insolent, contemptuous attitude made evident by a practice of these things: Willful, continued, unnecessary association with disfellowshipped nonrelatives despite repeated counsel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%2 ... discipline



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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #228

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:46 pmI can guarantee you that if atheists or any other religion (such as scientologists who have the same practice as you have), make a practice of shunning others, including their own children or parents, loved ones, they would be...
The point was not taking about the religious "practise of shunning" it was talking about what you and everyone does, the practice of making personal decisions as to who will or will not be one's intimate aquaintence based in common interests, attraction and/or personal preference.
As for the religious practice of disfellowshipping and biblical shunning, we are proud of it and wouldnt have it and other way, because it is based in scripture and God is well please with us. If the world criticises us, that is of no great concern to us as long as they are criticising what we actually do not misconceptions, misinformation and lies about what we do.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #229

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:58 pm "Shepherd the Flock of God", pages 60-61:
...brazen conduct may be involved in the following if the wrongdoer has an insolent, contemptuous attitude made evident by a practice of these things: Willful, continued, unnecessary association with disfellowshipped nonrelatives despite repeated counsel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%2 ... discipline
.

Thank you for the reference.


CAN A PERSON BE DISFELLOWSHIPPED FOR TALKING TO A DISFELLOWSHIPPED PERSON?

Within the family, communication continues with ones disfellowshipped children or partner and even outside the household, although contact would be kept to a minimum, there are situations where discussions (perhaps about family matters) are necessary. An employer/employee relationship and or any other number of situations might require conversing with a disfellowshipped person, so I seriously doubt one can be disfellowshipped for simply talking with a disfellowshipped person.
Conversations even intimate sexual relationships (as is the case for a husband and wife), may be continued with a disfellowshipped person but if someone displayed a "insolent, contemptuous attitude" for bible standards with a nonrelative then that may be considered a disfellowshipping offense.




JW


To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , DISFELLOWSHIPPING/SHUNNING and ... ORGANISATIONAL INFALLIBILITY
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Feb 27, 2022 5:29 am, edited 4 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #230

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:19 pm
tam wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:46 pm
[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #217]

Jehovahs Witnesses are free to meet up with whoever they wish and develop or withdraw from any relationships (frienships) they see fit.
But that is not true, is it?


Yes it is true.

Firstly, the context was
I know what the context was. I was taking your statement at face value to make the point that it is your religion that prohibits who you can associate with. You seem to be free to shun anyone you want (even if it is not mandatory)... but you are not free to associate with whomever you want (such as a person who is df'd or da'd).

The rest is in the original post that prompted this response.


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