"Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

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"Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

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Post by Miles »

.


To Note: This OP has came about more as an eye-opener about Jehovah's Witnesses rather than any attempt at disparagement. Recognizing that every religion, denomination, and congregation has the right to operate as best it sees fit under its particular guidelines, my presentation and comments are strictly the result of surprise and befuddlement after watching the video, Shun Your Family.


I've heard of disfellowship among Jehovah's Witnesses before, but never realized the extent it goes to as a disloyalty test. So, what is disfellowship?

"Disfellowship:
To 'remove the wicked
man' or woman from
the congregation
Watchtower 2011 Jul 15 p.23 simplified edition"

"Jehovah's Witnesses are disfellowshipped for practices such as disagreeing with Watchtower doctrine, smoking or fornication, if judged by the congregation elders as unrepentant. A disfellowshipped person is to be shunned by all family and friends, usually for the remainder of their life, and go through tremendous emotional suffering. Whilst Scriptural precedence limits association with wrongdoers, Watchtower application of disfellowshipping seriously deviates from Bible guidelines.
source


A particularly disturbing comment in the video below:

"We have to put him [Jehovah] before a father, a mother, and even our children if they're disfellowshipped. And if the disfellowshipping of our family is not bad enough, loyalty to Jehovah may mean we even have to endure reproach. We may be hurting because, 'I can't, can't talk to my family member."
(time mark 2:41)


....................


What really amazes me is that the organization refuses to take any responsibility whatsoever for a member becoming "wicked." Yet it does refuse to, and even tells its members refuse to as well. From the video:

"Now we're gonna mention three things NOT to do, and two of them are games not to play.

The first one is, don't play the blame game. Resist self-blame. We may think that we're at fault somehow. Remember that Jehovah holds sinners responsible for their actions. Even young ones that are disfellowshipped . . it's because their relationship with Jehovah was weak.

Avoid the "if only games." "If only we would have preached more, if only I would have talked to them more." "If only we would have done more in the organization. If only. . .If only . . . Don't do that to ourselves
"


It's as if every mother, father, and JW preacher knew exactly how to get through to their children and other members, and actually did so. Think that's true? I don't. I've never heard a JW preacher speak, but I have heard a fair number of other Christian ministers, several of whom were so abysmal they couldn't convince a soaking wet dog to come in out of the rain. Thing is, from time to time we all fail in our relationships with others, and despite the JW philosophy, it isn't always the other guy's fault. Sometimes it's our own, in whole or in part. As willing to listen as a Jehovah's Witness may be it's only reasonable to acknowledge the possible failure of parents and preachers to get through. We don't all come with the same set of responsive abilities. Some of us simply have to be approached from another angle before the message sinks in. So for the sake of those Jehovah's Witnesses who are on the brink of becoming one of the "wicked," as well as their families, I think it would be nice if the organization changed their blame game and acknowledged the part it plays in the failures among its membership.


SO: Do you think I have a point here or not?

.

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #241

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 7:02 pm

So then what were you going on about when you were complaining about having your rights denied here:
Why should individual Jehovahs Witnesses be denied the rights every atheist, agnostic and Christian that has never belonged to an organised religion has, namely to choose their associated and friends? Why are Jehovahs Witnesses the only people on earth that have to forfeit that right to choose their own friends for fear of being stigmatized?



My point was fully explained in the post. If you are confused may I suggest you read it again?
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat Feb 26, 2022 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #242

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 7:05 pm
tam wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 7:02 pm

So then what were you going on about when you were complaining about having your rights denied here:
Why should individual Jehovahs Witnesses be denied the rights every atheist, agnostic and Christian that has never belonged to an organised religion has, namely to choose their associated and friends? Why are Jehovahs Witnesses the only people on earth that have to forfeit that right to choose their own friends for fear of being stigmatized?



My point was fully explained in the post. If you are confused may I suggest you reading again?
So who was denying you your right to choose your associates and friends?

Or do you equate having the right to do something with being free from criticism for what you choose?
- Non-religious Christian spirituality

- For Christ (who is the Spirit)

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #243

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 7:08 pm
So who was denying you your right to choose your associates and friends?
Did I say anybody was?
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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #244

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 7:02 pmThe religion is the one telling her members who they can and cannot associate with.
That is false.
1 CORINTHIANS 15:33

Do not be misled. Bad associations spoil useful habits.
God tells his people what is good and what is bad and leaves them the freedom to obey or not. He does not however leave them the freedom from the consequences of disobedience. Those in a position of leadership in the true church teach its members what God says and enforce Christian law as authorized by Him.

1 CORINTHIANS 5:12, 13

For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.”



...because their religion properly conformes to bible law, Jehovah's Witnesses are not free to continue a friendship and association with a df'd (or da'd) person WITHOUT risk of being [facing God ordained disipline].
Yes that'is correct. Note ...
GALATIANS 6:7 - New International Version

Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows


But shouldn't people be free to associated with those wicked persons without the fear of being disfellowshipped?

What one believes SHOULD happen depends on if one recognises the bible as the word of Almighty God or not.

Those that disregard biblical authority (or only accept certain parts of the bible canon ) do not see the above as God speaking to them.

They see obeying the bible as "The religion [being] the one telling her members who they can and cannot associate with" And of course, logically, the wicked who have themselves been disfellowshippedd (and their sympathizers ) probably think that Christians should be free to continue a friendship and association with them WITHOUT risk of being disfellowshipped. The truth however is that those that love God happily obey him from the heart in all they do, including his command to remove those judged as wicked from their communities (see 1 Cor 5:12, 13).

1 CORINTHIANS 5:12, 13

...judge those inside, while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.”
tam wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 7:02 pm....the point that a person is not free to continue a friendship and association with a df'd (or da'd) person WITHOUT risk of being df'd themselves. The religion is the one telling her members who they can and cannot associate with.

See above.



JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

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JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , DISFELLOWSHIPPING / SHUNNING and ... ORGANISATIONAL INFALLIBILITY
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #245

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:35 am
Are you suggesting that there is no way to leave the Jehovah's Witness religion without being shunned?
What I am saying is; if one was to leave the JW religion, best believe that the person is going to be shunned by SOMEONE.

There is no just leaving. You will sacrifice something, which is usually the love from a loved one.
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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #246

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 11:10 am What has that got to do with our organisation? Jehovahs Witnesses are free to meet up with whoever they wish and develop or withdraw from any relationships (frienships) they see fit.

Why should individual Jehovahs Witnesses be denied the rights every atheist, agnostic and Christian that has never belonged to an organised religion has, namely to choose their associated and friends? Why are Jehovahs Witnesses the only people on earth that have to forfeit that right to choose their own friends for fear of being stigmatized?
  • If you or any other atheist chooses not to associated with someone, they are not criticised (it is understood that is nobody's business but their own, and they must have their reasons)
  • If a scientist does the same they too are not criticised (it is understood that is nobody's business but their own, and they must have their reasons)
  • If a Jehovah's Witnesses does the same they all hell breaks loose and they are criticised for being brainwashed automats - even though their organisation does not interfere in personal relationships that do not effect others on a congregatioral level.
The utter hypocracy of those that freely chose to cut off their crazy cousin Phil that offered their son crack or yes, that former drinking buddy that found Jesus and now only wants to talk about the Lord, but attacks Jehovahs Witnesses for exercising the same rights to protect themselves and their children from what they consider toxic relationships or just plain frienship they have outgrown, is mind-boggljng.

The bottom Line is everybody chooses their friends based on common interests and mutuel respect, it is disingenuous for anyone to imply that one particular group should be criticised for doing what they themselves also do (unless they claim to still have every friend they ever made) and is a basic human freedom just because their religion has organisational standards.
To learn more please go to other posts related to...
We still don't appear to be on the same frequency here. Let me give a quick, simple, straight-forward analogy.

Suppose I was once a JW and decided that the WTS is not the truth after all, and I decided to DA myself and join a Baptist church instead.

So at this point, I am no longer associated with the JW religion...and the entire congregation knows about my disassociation. Follow me?

Now, suppose, despite my disassociation, there are a couple of buddies of mines of whom are still active witnesses and remained friends with me, and we still go out to ballgames, and have BBQ's at our houses with our families.

Long story short; if an elder(s) found out that active JW members were still associating with me, based on everything you know about the organization, would these members be counseled, reprimanded, or undergo any kind of talk or judicial treatment, no matter how small of the degree?

Yes or no?
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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #247

Post by JehovahsWitness »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:34 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:35 am
Are you suggesting that there is no way to leave the Jehovah's Witness religion without being shunned?
What I am saying is; if one was to leave the JW religion, best believe that the person is going to be shunned by SOMEONE.

Anyone can believe what they like. All beliefs however are not necessarily true and what is "best" is that people do sufficient research to know if what they believe is actually based in reality.

When it comes to to leaving the Jehovahs Witnesses the FACTS are that there is no reason (unless one intends to engage in wrongdoing) a person should conclude they will be shunned by friends and family. Since you have repeatedly said you are not talking about anything but ideological differences then there is absolutely no reason to believe they will be shunned by SOMEONE.
To illustrate : On this forum there are accepted community guidelines, none of which include being banned (shunned) for not posting anymore. So why would you or anyone you believe they will be banned just for distancing themselves from fellow posters? While any poster is free to block your messages at any time for any reason, unless you are planning to harass someone, why would you believe they would do so? And if they did would'nt it be more logical to question your own behaviour rather than poster or the forum webmaster ?
If a person moves away, either physically or ideologically from a friendship, who is to "blame" if one is going to accord blame at all? The friend who has remained constant to what brought them together (or factored in the maintenance of that friendship) in the first place, or the one that got on his horse and rode away?






JW
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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #248

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

onewithhim wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 1:51 pm You say that our organization is man-made and you deride our belief that Jehovah has always had an organization, and you say other derogatory things.
*Sigh* I know, I know. :(

Forgive me for my elevated tone. I respect you, a lot. You know I do.

However, I have an allegiance with Jesus Christ, and part of the allegiance is to speak out against false religion...and with that, a few eggs needs to get cracked in order to make the omelet.

Do you know the great Galactus, who is a supervillain in the Marvel Universe?

He is a supervillain who gets his energy by feeding off the energy of universes.

One of his great quotes is..

"The loss of life when I feed is regrettable, but unavoidable".

Well, kind of the same thing going on here. :lol: ;)
onewithhim wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 1:51 pm Can you just respect our deeply-held beliefs and stop making fun of us for believing certain things?
I will turn down the dial of my tone, certainly. Again, my apologies. :approve:
onewithhim wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 1:51 pm We are not wishy-washy as you might at first have thought, so to attack us is not benefiting anybody.
False religions/beliefs must be exposed.

I get attacked, too.

I get told that my lord and savior is a walking "Zombie" (which is kind of funny :lol: ).

I get told that I worship a magical sky being.

I get told that I might as well believe in santa claus, the tooth fairy, and the easter bunny.

I get told that my God is a "bad parent" for sacrificing his son (which is kind of funny :lol: )

I get criticized by my own people (African descent) for believing in a "white Jesus", and that my religion is the "white man's" religion...and all sorts of other nonsense.

So, it comes with the territory.
onewithhim wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 1:51 pm We believe Christ is our reigning King and that he will rule the whole planet someday soon. How much more honor can we give to Christ? You say that we should believe in Christ, and we do. What else can you say that would seem to be a better place to go?
.
If I have to go through an organization for Christ to be my king, then apparently Christ' sacrifice wasn't enough...but the Scripture tells us that it is enough.

So obviously, what you say and what the Bible say are two different things and that is where the problem will always lie.
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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #249

Post by JehovahsWitness »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:48 am
Suppose I was once a JW and decided that the WTS is not the truth after all, and I decided to DA myself and join a Baptist church instead.
DA? Dissassocate yourself... how? If you mean formally request (by approaching the elders) that you no longer wish be counted as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, then that has been discussed.




Can a Jehovah's Witness join another church without being disfellowshipped?
viewtopic.php?p=1066416#p1066416

Is it true some people make formal requests to be shunned?
viewtopic.php?p=1066724#p1066724
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #250

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

onewithhim wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 2:30 pm [Replying to tam in post #221]

We have gone to Jesus Christ. And he has led us to his organization, an organization he has always been associated with since the days of Abraham.


See, and that is the problem right there.

Jehovah's Witnesses (forgive me for saying this), are arrogantly going around saying that they are God's chosen organization...and my question is, says who?

When God choses you, he will tell you.

You do not tell him.

And it would be nice if you can provide a Scripture where Christ leads us to an organization, which is a concept so foreign to Biblical truth, that it could only have arisen thousands of years later, long after Jesus' earthly ministry and well after the age of the apostles.

The New Testament leads readers to Christ. Not an organization.

However, the Watchtower and Tract Society and Awake magazines leads us to the organization. Not to Christ.

That is why when you look at practically any WTS or Awake magazine, you will see picture illustrations of Jehovah's Witnesses fellowshipping and/or evangelizing with people, and in their hands they will have two things..

1. A Bible.
2. The latest WTS/Awake magazine.

Why? Because the Gospel is being presented to be viewed through the LENS' of the Watchtower and Tract Society, that's why.

Sorry, but I must speak the truth.

And that is the truth.
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