"Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

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"Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #1

Post by Miles »

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To Note: This OP has came about more as an eye-opener about Jehovah's Witnesses rather than any attempt at disparagement. Recognizing that every religion, denomination, and congregation has the right to operate as best it sees fit under its particular guidelines, my presentation and comments are strictly the result of surprise and befuddlement after watching the video, Shun Your Family.


I've heard of disfellowship among Jehovah's Witnesses before, but never realized the extent it goes to as a disloyalty test. So, what is disfellowship?

"Disfellowship:
To 'remove the wicked
man' or woman from
the congregation
Watchtower 2011 Jul 15 p.23 simplified edition"

"Jehovah's Witnesses are disfellowshipped for practices such as disagreeing with Watchtower doctrine, smoking or fornication, if judged by the congregation elders as unrepentant. A disfellowshipped person is to be shunned by all family and friends, usually for the remainder of their life, and go through tremendous emotional suffering. Whilst Scriptural precedence limits association with wrongdoers, Watchtower application of disfellowshipping seriously deviates from Bible guidelines.
source


A particularly disturbing comment in the video below:

"We have to put him [Jehovah] before a father, a mother, and even our children if they're disfellowshipped. And if the disfellowshipping of our family is not bad enough, loyalty to Jehovah may mean we even have to endure reproach. We may be hurting because, 'I can't, can't talk to my family member."
(time mark 2:41)


....................


What really amazes me is that the organization refuses to take any responsibility whatsoever for a member becoming "wicked." Yet it does refuse to, and even tells its members refuse to as well. From the video:

"Now we're gonna mention three things NOT to do, and two of them are games not to play.

The first one is, don't play the blame game. Resist self-blame. We may think that we're at fault somehow. Remember that Jehovah holds sinners responsible for their actions. Even young ones that are disfellowshipped . . it's because their relationship with Jehovah was weak.

Avoid the "if only games." "If only we would have preached more, if only I would have talked to them more." "If only we would have done more in the organization. If only. . .If only . . . Don't do that to ourselves
"


It's as if every mother, father, and JW preacher knew exactly how to get through to their children and other members, and actually did so. Think that's true? I don't. I've never heard a JW preacher speak, but I have heard a fair number of other Christian ministers, several of whom were so abysmal they couldn't convince a soaking wet dog to come in out of the rain. Thing is, from time to time we all fail in our relationships with others, and despite the JW philosophy, it isn't always the other guy's fault. Sometimes it's our own, in whole or in part. As willing to listen as a Jehovah's Witness may be it's only reasonable to acknowledge the possible failure of parents and preachers to get through. We don't all come with the same set of responsive abilities. Some of us simply have to be approached from another angle before the message sinks in. So for the sake of those Jehovah's Witnesses who are on the brink of becoming one of the "wicked," as well as their families, I think it would be nice if the organization changed their blame game and acknowledged the part it plays in the failures among its membership.


SO: Do you think I have a point here or not?

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #2

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Why is it "shocking" it is common knowledge our religion practices shunning (disfelowshipping).


  • Its OPENLY published on our website www.jw.org (which is one of, if not the most, frequently visited religious websites on earth). It's been oft discussed right here on this website (see links below) so its hardly "shocking" in the sense of a surprising little known fact.
  • If you mean shocking as in inappropriate that is a matter of opinion. Shunning is a biblical mandate and a scripturally sound procedure, so it doesn't shock me.




HOW DO JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES TREAT THEIR DISFELLOWSHIPPED CHILDREN ?
Since his being disfellowshipped does not sever the family ties, normal day-to-day family activities and dealings may continue. Yet, by his course, the individual has chosen to break the spiritual bond between him and his believing family. So loyal family members can no longer have spiritual fellowship with him. For example, if the disfellowshipped one is present, he would not participate when the family gets together for family worship. However, if the disfellowshipped one is a minor child, the parents are still responsible to instruct and discipline him. Hence, loving parents may arrange to conduct a Bible study with the child. - lv published: Watchtower Society p. 207 par 3



FURTHER READING

Do Jehovah's Witnesses Shun Former Members of Their Religion?
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/shunning/

How to treat a disfellowshipped person?
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102008083

Do Jehovah's Witnesses Break Up Families or Build Them Up?
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/families/




REASONS

Why do Jehovahs Witnesses practise shunning?
viewtopic.php?p=1050045#p1050045

Is biblical shunning both scriptural and loving? Questions & Answers
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 71#p895871

When is disfellowshipping/shunning justified?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 72#p895672

What model do the Jehovah's Witnesses adhere to that governs their ecclesiastical lives?
viewtopic.php?p=1029087#p1029087

Why do Jehovah's Witnesses allow repentant sinners to remain in the faith?
viewtopic.php?p=1060185#p1060185

PROCEDURE
Can a member leave the Jehovahs Witnesses religion without being shunned by friends and family ?
viewtopic.php?p=1066622#p1066622

Is there verifiable documented proof that some ex-witnesses formerly ask to be shunned?
viewtopic.php?p=1066724#p1066724

Do Jehovah's Witnesses have to hide their reasons for leaving the religion from friends and family to avoid being shunned?
viewtopic.php?p=1066677#p1066677

Can entire congregation unilaterally "unofficially" shun a member ?
viewtopic.php?p=1066088#p1066088

How do Jehovah's Witnesses ensure published policy is carried out?
viewtopic.php?p=1065143#p1065143

Can a baptised Witness that has already left the organisation be disfellowshipped?
viewtopic.php?p=1066460#p1066460

Why don't many ex-witness support groups emphasis that leaving does NOT equate to being shunned?
viewtopic.php?p=1066583#p1066583

Why post official JW protocol? Is it faithfully applied?
viewtopic.php?p=1066775#p1066775

MOTIVES

Do Jehovahs Witnesses shun former members?
viewtopic.php?p=1065834#p1065834

Are people disfellowshipped for internet debating?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 43#p895843

Do JWs disfellowship for watching the wrong movies or or listening to the wrong music?
viewtopic.php?p=1065008#p1065008

Do JWs disfellowship for reading non approved books ?
viewtopic.php?p=1066508#p1066508

Can a Jehovah's Witness join another church without bejng disfellowshipped?
viewtopic.php?p=1066416#p1066416
MARRIAGE MATES
Do JWs see shunning /disfellowshiping as grounds for DIVORCE?
viewtopic.php?p=1032193#p1032193

Do Jehovahs Witnesses break up marriages?
viewtopic.php?p=1032157#p1032157

How are Jehovahs Witnesses taught to treat marriage partners that do not agree with their religion?
viewtopic.php?p=1032167#p1032167

Do Jehovahs Witnesses believe the biblical directive to cut off all contact with an APOSTATE applies to marriage mates?
viewtopic.php?p=1032256#p1032256
CHILDREN

How do Jehovah's Witnesses treat their disfellowshipped or disassociated children ?
viewtopic.php?p=1062333#p1062333

Are members disciplines for neglecting their child if it no longer wishes to continue in the faith?
viewtopic.php?p=1066260#p1066260

Are children 18 and over cast out of the family home if they are disfellowshipped or disassociated?
viewtopic.php?p=1066420#p1066420

How do Jehovah's Witnesses treat ex-member FRIENDS ?
viewtopic.php?p=1066328#p1066328

Are ex-witnesses forced to choose between their beliefs and their family?
viewtopic.php?p=1066408#p1066408
To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , DISFELLOWSHIPPING/SHUNNING and .... CHILD ABUSE
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Feb 27, 2022 5:38 am, edited 16 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #3

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:38 am Why is it "shocking" it is common knowledge our religion practices shunning (disfelowshipping).
It wasn't "shocking" to me. That was the word my source used, and just happened to be in the topic title I quoted, which can be seen on the opening screen of the video. However, not being familiar with the extent JWs took their shunning, I was surprised at it's callousness. But since thinking about it, what better way to keep the sheep in line than to threaten them with complete severance from family an friends, and put the blame entirely on them. If it wasn't so self-serving and deplorable I might be amused at your organization's clean-hands tactic of denying any responsibility in a members "fall from grace."
Do you honestly believe you and your organization bear absolutely no responsibility in a member's wickedness? Sorry, that was a rhetorical question; of course you don't. Your organization's teaching never fails in getting its message through to everyone, and having done so, any member's failure to live up to its doctrine and commands is entirely theirs. "Resist self-blame" the guy in the video tells his audience. Why? Because your teaching is foolproof, so you have no blame to bear. Yah, sure. Clean-hands-all-around. Image


  • Its OPENLY published on our website www.jw.org (which is one of, if not the most, frequently visited religious websites on earth). It's been oft discussed right here on this website (see links below) so its hardly "shocking" in the sense of a surprising little known fact.
Believe it or not, but I have rarely read any JW literature.

  • If you mean shocking as in inappropriate that is a matter of opinion. Shunning is a biblical mandate and a scripturally sound procedure, so it doesn't shock me.
So too is killing practicing male homosexuals. Did you kill your quota last year?


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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #4

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:23 pm
  • If you mean shocking as in inappropriate that is a matter of opinion. Shunning is a biblical mandate and a scripturally sound procedure, so it doesn't shock me.
So too is killing practicing male homosexuals. Did you kill your quota last year?


.
I take it from your question that you are not contesting that it is a biblical mandate and a scripturally sound procedure but just think its hypocritical that we don't go further than we in fact do. As long as you recognise shunning is indeed a biblical mandate (not an arbitral rule that Jehovah's Witness just "made up") I have no issue. We have our reasons for not killing practising homosexuals.



JEHOVAH'S WITNESS




RELATED POSTS
Do Jehovahs Witnesses support the death penalty for homosexuals?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 61#p993261

Do Jehovahs Witnesses believe it their mission to rid the earth of homosexuals?
viewtopic.php?p=1065672#p1065672

Why do Christians wear MIXED FABRICS and eat SEAFOOD yet prohibit homosexual acts ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 72#p996772

Do Christians cherry-pick "old testament" laws?
viewtopic.php?p=1055839#p1055839

Did Jesus "cherry-pick" the Torah?
viewtopic.php?p=1020092#p1020092
To learn more please go to other posts related to...

HOMOSEXUALITY, HOMOPHOBIA and ...BIBLICAL PROHIBITIONS
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Tue Feb 01, 2022 6:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #5

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 5:27 pm
Miles wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:23 pm
  • If you mean shocking as in inappropriate that is a matter of opinion. Shunning is a biblical mandate and a scripturally sound procedure, so it doesn't shock me.
So too is killing practicing male homosexuals. Did you kill your quota last year?


.
I take it from your question that you are not contesting that it is a biblical mandate and a scripturally sound procedure but just think its hypocritical that we don't go further than we in fact do.
If you're not out there killing practicing male homosexuals, then I see your refusal as simple cherry picking: "I'll go along with this mandate because I like it, but I'll ignore the other because I don't like it."


As long as you recognise shunning is indeed a biblical mandate (not an arbitral rule that Jehovah's Witness just "made up") I have no issue. We have our reasons for not killing practising homosexuals.
So what is your reason for not obeying god's mandate to kill practicing male homosexuals? It certainly can't be because it's against mans law, because if I remember correctly, you once said something about god's law trumping man's law.


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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #6

Post by onewithhim »

Miles wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:23 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:38 am Why is it "shocking" it is common knowledge our religion practices shunning (disfelowshipping).
It wasn't "shocking" to me. That was the word my source used, and just happened to be in the topic title I quoted, which can be seen on the opening screen of the video. However, not being familiar with the extent JWs took their shunning, I was surprised at it's callousness. But since thinking about it, what better way to keep the sheep in line than to threaten them with complete severance from family an friends, and put the blame entirely on them. If it wasn't so self-serving and deplorable I might be amused at your organization's clean-hands tactic of denying any responsibility in a members "fall from grace."
Do you honestly believe you and your organization bear absolutely no responsibility in a member's wickedness? Sorry, that was a rhetorical question; of course you don't. Your organization's teaching never fails in getting its message through to everyone, and having done so, any member's failure to live up to its doctrine and commands is entirely theirs. "Resist self-blame" the guy in the video tells his audience. Why? Because your teaching is foolproof, so you have no blame to bear. Yah, sure. Clean-hands-all-around. Image


  • Its OPENLY published on our website www.jw.org (which is one of, if not the most, frequently visited religious websites on earth). It's been oft discussed right here on this website (see links below) so its hardly "shocking" in the sense of a surprising little known fact.
Believe it or not, but I have rarely read any JW literature.

  • If you mean shocking as in inappropriate that is a matter of opinion. Shunning is a biblical mandate and a scripturally sound procedure, so it doesn't shock me.
So too is killing practicing male homosexuals. Did you kill your quota last year?


.
Disfellowshipping is absolutely scriptural, and if you read JehovahsWitness's links on it you could see that. If you didn't read any of them, I would think that you really don't want to know the truth about it.

"Quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolator or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man [or woman]....Remove the wicked man from among yourselves." (I Corinthians 5:11,13)

Why is it shocking to anyone? It's right there in black and white.

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #7

Post by Miles »

onewithhim wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 4:47 pm
Miles wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:23 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:38 am Why is it "shocking" it is common knowledge our religion practices shunning (disfelowshipping).
It wasn't "shocking" to me. That was the word my source used, and just happened to be in the topic title I quoted, which can be seen on the opening screen of the video. However, not being familiar with the extent JWs took their shunning, I was surprised at it's callousness. But since thinking about it, what better way to keep the sheep in line than to threaten them with complete severance from family an friends, and put the blame entirely on them. If it wasn't so self-serving and deplorable I might be amused at your organization's clean-hands tactic of denying any responsibility in a members "fall from grace."
Do you honestly believe you and your organization bear absolutely no responsibility in a member's wickedness? Sorry, that was a rhetorical question; of course you don't. Your organization's teaching never fails in getting its message through to everyone, and having done so, any member's failure to live up to its doctrine and commands is entirely theirs. "Resist self-blame" the guy in the video tells his audience. Why? Because your teaching is foolproof, so you have no blame to bear. Yah, sure. Clean-hands-all-around. Image


  • Its OPENLY published on our website www.jw.org (which is one of, if not the most, frequently visited religious websites on earth). It's been oft discussed right here on this website (see links below) so its hardly "shocking" in the sense of a surprising little known fact.
Believe it or not, but I have rarely read any JW literature.

  • If you mean shocking as in inappropriate that is a matter of opinion. Shunning is a biblical mandate and a scripturally sound procedure, so it doesn't shock me.
So too is killing practicing male homosexuals. Did you kill your quota last year?


.
Disfellowshipping is absolutely scriptural, and if you read JehovahsWitness's links on it you could see that. If you didn't read any of them, I would think that you really don't want to know the truth about it.
Good grief, have you seen how many links JehovahsWitness posts. If I cared enough to read them all (those he posts just in reply to me) I wouldn't get to bed until 3 am.

"Quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolator or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man [or woman]....Remove the wicked man from among yourselves." (I Corinthians 5:11,13)

Why is it shocking to anyone? It's right there in black and white.
In light of god's attitude toward owning others as property (slavery) and to practicing homosexual males---kill 'em all---nothing he says or does shocks me anymore.

By the way, did you kill your quota last year?

Just as god relies on you to dis-fellowship your fellow fornicating, greedy, drunkards, no doubt he's relying on you to help rid the planet of practicing gays----please note that he gives lesbians a bye on this. They can do whatever they want with each other and get away with it.


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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #8

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 5:28 pm
Just as god relies on you to dis-fellowship your fellow fornicating, greedy, drunkards, no doubt he's relying on you to help rid the planet of practicing gays---
That is your assumption, we Jehovahs Witnesses claim no ownership of it.

DO JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES BELIEVE THEY HAVE ARE CHARGED BY GOD TO RID THE EARTH OF [KILL] HOMOSEXUALS ?

Absolutely not. Firstly, disfellowshipping addresses misconduct (actions) not orientation, so the mandate is against sexual misconduct not orientation. Further, appointed men are charged to remove unrepentent sinners from the congregations not from society at large.
While we recognize under the Mosaic law system homosexual acts were punishible by death, we as Christians do not live under that system and are charged to kill no one.

We have no "quota" to kill anybody, and we do not believe Christians have the responsibility to kill anybody and happily leave God to judge us all.



To learn more please see other posts related to...

HOMOSEXUALITY, HOMOPHOBIA and ... THE MOSIAC LAW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:05 pm, edited 4 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #9

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 6:11 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 5:28 pm
Just as god relies on you to dis-fellowship your fellow fornicating, greedy, drunkards, no doubt he's relying on you to help rid the planet of practicing gays---

That is your assumption, we Jehovahs Witnesses claim no ownership of it.
Oh, I can understand why Jehovahs Witnesses claim no ownership of killing practicing homosexual males. It's a pretty embarrassing directive from the big guy, and if nothing else leaving this cherry on the tree amounts to a huge practicality. However, in post #6 onewithhim (one of your own) did write:

" 'Disfellowshipping is absolutely scriptural, and if you read JehovahsWitness's links on it you could see that. If you didn't read any of them, I would think that you really don't want to know the truth about it.

"Quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolator or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man [or woman]....Remove the wicked man from among yourselves." (I Corinthians 5:11,13)


SO, considering that "16 All Scripture is given by God. And all Scripture is useful for teaching and for showing people what is wrong in their lives. It is useful for correcting faults and teaching the right way to live. 17 Using the Scriptures, those who serve God will be prepared and will have everything they need to do every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

And that Paul said: ""Quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolator or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man [or woman]....Remove the wicked man from among yourselves." " (1 Corinthians 5:11)

And that
13 If a man has sexual relations with another man as with a woman, they have committed a terrible sin. They must be put to death. They are responsible for their own death." (Leviticus 20:13)

isn't it more than just my assumption, but what god wants? Was it not god himself who uttered those words, "They must be put to death"?


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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #10

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 12:18 am 13 If a man has sexual relations with another man as with a woman, they have committed a terrible sin. They must be put to death. They are responsible for their own death." (Leviticus 20:13)

isn't it more than just my assumption, but what god wants? Was it not god himself who uttered those words, "They must be put to death"?


DOES EVERY WORD OF THE BIBLE HAVE TO APPLY TO EVERYONE TO BE INSPIRED AND FREE OF ERROR?
Every word in the bible is valuable but not everything applies to everyone all of the time. It is not "disregarding" a law that if said law us not applicable.
To illustrate:
  • Peter and John were sent by Jesus to go and get a donkey. That instruction does not apply to me or anyone other than those two first century disciples.
... another example
  • There was a mandate for the Israelites wandering the desert, to go outside the camp, dig a hole in the ground squat over it when they need to defecate; and when done to bury their waste. This law existed to protect the people at the time from disease but does not apply to people with modern plumbing not living in a tent.
Even when the Mosaic law was in force certain laws only,applied to certain people, for example ...
  • Mensruating women were required to self-isolate for seven days. This law did not apply to men.

DOES CLAIMING A LAW IS NOT APPLICABLE AMOUNT TO DISREGARDING IT?

Recognising correct application of law doesn't amount to "disregarding" law (if by disregarding as in injustifiably ignoring and demeaning said law). Nor does it imply the law was/is faulty. Americans don't "disregarding" British law which mandates one drives on the left, they recognise it, but also recognise that since they live outside the UK it simply does not apply to them?

Under the Mosaic law system which was ONLY in operation while the kingdom of Israel was a theocracy, homosexuel acts were punishible by death; so if found guilty in a court of law, the authorities at that time had the God given right to execute those guilty of such acts. The earthly theocracy ended in 607, the temple found sytem'of worship ended i 70 CE. Christians therefore I have no right to exact any such a punishment from anyone.

CONCLUSION One cannot justifiably assume that just because something is divinely inspired and recorded in the bible it must automatically apply to everyone, forever. This does not amount to disregarding or ignoring those laws, but to recognising who came under them. The law to execute those found guilty of homosexuel acts does not apply to those living during the Christian era.





JW



RELATED POSTS
Is it "cherry-picking" to recognise laws must be legally applicable ?
viewtopic.php?p=1055839#p1055839

Does Mat 5:18 not indicate that none of the Mosaic law would ever pass away?
viewtopic.php?p=1042911#p1042911

Does every word in the bible have to apply to everyone? [this post]
viewtopic.php?p=1055876#p1055876

Do bible writers always apply the whole scripture?
viewtopic.php?p=1059551#p1059551
To learn more please see other posts related to...

HOMOSEXUALITY, HOMOPHOBIA and ... THE MOSIAC LAW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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