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Organizations

Post #1

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Over many years I've developed the view that organizations (for example Watchtower, LDS, Charismatics and so on) are completely unnecessary and a source of confusion, sometimes even fear and misery, for people.

Each of these has some specific set of rules or beliefs that distinguish them from the others and one is expected to embrace and support those beliefs in order to remain (or at least be accepted as) a member.

I have nothing against consulting others, seeking opinions, discussing stuff with others but I am against the whole organization, member, rules, etc structure to Christianity.

My own understanding today is that Christ speaks to me, influences my spirit, as and when I read scripture or think about scripture or God in any way, I have no need for some intercessor.

If I do not understand something I pray on it, I either take steps to learn more or leave it in God's hands, leave it simply as "I don't understand", I am fine and I think God is fine with that.

One of the many problems with organizations like those listed, is that they set themselves up as those who do understand, they encourage individuals to consult them, listen to them when we should really rely on God primarily.

Representatives of these organizations typically try to avoid ever saying "I don't know" as if they'd appear weak to do so. They like to have answers to questions and it seems to me that sometimes having an answer is more important than admitting that they don't know.

I became close (during the 1980s) to the former WWCG, led by the late Herbert Armstrong, I found their literature thought provoking (I spent a lot if time in libraries back then, and contrasted WWCG with JWs and others) but never became a "member", because despite finding much sense in their literature I remained unconvinced about some of their rules, for example tithing, and this was one of the things stopping me from "joining".

Since Armstrong died (and the entire group fragmented with much fall out and misery for some) I've learned to rely primarily on God to guide me, the scripture being a written representation of Christ, able to impart knowledge and understanding, or at least provide the impetus for it, when I choose to consult it, to rely upon it.

Am I in a minority here? are very very few Christians decoupled from formal organizations or is my attitude regarded as heretical by some?
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Re: Organizations

Post #11

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 1:49 pm
My experience is that each one makes some claims that are reasonable but each one also makes claims that are not, that are at odds, that are an imposition, a means of control, divisive.

I appreciate you basing your position on your human experience and personal studies; as long as, you do not claim your conclusion is based on scripture I have no issue with that.


Enjoy!



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Re: Organizations

Post #12

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Eloi wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:16 pm The conflict is in your imagination, not in the teachings of Jesus:

Matt. 7:13 “Go in through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it.
15 “Be on the watch for the false prophets who come to you in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? 17 Likewise, every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, nor can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. 19 Every tree not producing fine fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men.
21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’
24 “Therefore, everyone who hears these sayings of mine and does them will be like a discreet man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and lashed against that house, but it did not cave in, for it had been founded on the rock. 26 Furthermore, everyone hearing these sayings of mine and not doing them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and struck against that house, and it caved in, and its collapse was great.”

Have a good day.
Do you agree that 1 Cor 15:20 says
so in Christ all will be made alive
Does it say "all" or "some"? does it say "all" or "many"? does it say "all" or "the few"? does it say "all" or "the righteous"?

The word "all" is from the Greek πάντες.

That same Greek word is used here:
Come to Me, πάντες who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.
Peter said to Him, "Even if I have to die with You, I will not deny You." πάντες the disciples said the same thing too.
He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that πάντες might believe through him.
What is written is plain to see.
When one has eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

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Re: Organizations

Post #13

Post by Eloi »

[Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #2]
If I say to my family: "Let's go ALL to the beach" I am not talking to my neighbors.
No Christian ignores the destruction of the wicked.

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Re: Organizations

Post #14

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:27 pm ...

The word "all" is from the Greek πάντες.

That same Greek word is used here:
Come to Me, πάντες who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.
Peter said to Him, "Even if I have to die with You, I will not deny You." πάντες the disciples said the same thing too.
He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that πάντες might believe through him.
What is written is plain to see.


The Greek is a good deal more inclusive than you seem to believe.

#STRONGS
Image


Here is the VINES entry

[ A-1,Adjective,G3956, pas ]
radically means all." Used without the article it means " "every," every kind or variety. So the RV marg. in Ephesians 2:21, "every building," and the text in Ephesians 3:15, "every family," and the RV marg. of Acts 2:36, "every house;" or it may signify "the highest degree," the maximum of what is referred to, as, "with all boldness" Acts 4:29. Before proper names of countries, cities and nations, and before collective terms, like "Israel," it signifies either "all" or "the whole," e.g., Matthew 2:3; Acts 2:36.

Used with the article, it means the whole of one object. In the plural it signifies "the totality of the persons or things referred to."

Used without a noun it virtually becomes a pronoun, meaning "everyone" or "anyone ." In the plural with a noun it means "all." One form of the neuter plural (panta) signifies "wholly, together, in all ways, in all things," Acts 20:35; 1 Corinthians 9:25. The neuter plural without the article signifies "all things severally," e.g., John 1:3; 1 Corinthians 2:10; preceded by the article it denotes "all things," as constituting a whole, e.g., Romans 11:36; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Ephesians 3:9. See EVERY, Note
(1), WHOLE.

So basically it can mean all of a catagory whether stated or not, acting as a distributive adjective.




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Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:59 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Organizations

Post #15

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Eloi wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:32 pm [Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #2]
If I say to my family: "Let's go ALL to the beach" I am not talking to my neighbors.
No Christian ignores the destruction of the wicked.
The examples of actual usage in the Greek language used at the time of Christ serve to establish what "all" means.

Think about this, if only a subset of humanity are to be saved would you really expect the text of 1 Cor 15:20 to not say so? God inspired "all" because God means "all", not some, not the righteous, not the chosen, any one of such terms could have been used but was not, the Holy Spirit wanted to use the word "all".
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Re: Organizations

Post #16

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:42 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:27 pm ...

The word "all" is from the Greek πάντες.

That same Greek word is used here:
Come to Me, πάντες who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.
Peter said to Him, "Even if I have to die with You, I will not deny You." πάντες the disciples said the same thing too.
He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that πάντες might believe through him.
What is written is plain to see.


The Greek is a good deal more inclusive than you seem to believe.

#STRONGS
Image


Hervé is the VINES entry

[ A-1,Adjective,G3956, pas ]
radically means all." Used without the article it means " "every," every kind or variety. So the RV marg. in Ephesians 2:21, "every building," and the text in Ephesians 3:15, "every family," and the RV marg. of Acts 2:36, "every house;" or it may signify "the highest degree," the maximum of what is referred to, as, "with all boldness" Acts 4:29. Before proper names of countries, cities and nations, and before collective terms, like "Israel," it signifies either "all" or "the whole," e.g., Matthew 2:3; Acts 2:36.

Used with the article, it means the whole of one object. In the plural it signifies "the totality of the persons or things referred to." Used without a noun it virtually becomes a pronoun, meaning "everyone" or "anyone." In the plural with a noun it means "all." One form of the neuter plural (panta) signifies "wholly, together, in all ways, in all things," Acts 20:35; 1 Corinthians 9:25. The neuter plural without the article signifies "all things severally," e.g., John 1:3; 1 Corinthians 2:10; preceded by the article it denotes "all things," as constituting a whole, e.g., Romans 11:36; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Ephesians 3:9. See EVERY, Note
(1), WHOLE.

So basically it can mean all of a catagory whether stated or not acting as a distributive adjective.




JW
There's more though:
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people
This is almost a paraphrasing of 1 Cor 15:22.

Then we have:
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
Those who believe have a "special" status but nevertheless those that do not are included.
When one has eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

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Re: Organizations

Post #17

Post by Eloi »

You are drawing a wrong conclusion, even though you pretend to draw it from Scripture.

1) Mark 9:23 Jesus says "all things are possible for the one who has faith" and then in 11:24 "all the things you pray and ask for, have faith that you have received them, and you will have them". It is obvious that there are some conditions that are implicit for both things to happen, even if Jesus used the expression ALL (G3956);

2) In Mark.13:23 he says "I have told you all things beforehand", but in John 16: 4,12 he says that there are things that he did not tell them, and that the spirit would tell them in the future;

3) Paul used the same expression when he said "I am trying to please all people in all things" (1Cor.10:33) and "love believes everything" (1Cor.13:7); evidently it is not an ABSOLUTE "all" neither here;

4) In 1 Cor. 6:12 and 10:23 Paul says that "not all things are advantageous", but in 2Cor.12:19 he says that "all that we do is to build you up";

5) In Col.1:18, Heb.2: 8 and other texts it is said that ALL THINGS were submitted under the feet of Jesus, but in 1Cor.15: 27,28 the Father is excluded despite having used the expression ALL THINGS and in Heb.2: 8 it is said that at that time not everything was submitted under the feet of Jesus (apart from the Father);

6) In Phil. 3:7,8 Paul says that he "consider[s] all things to be loss on account of the excelling value of the knowledge of Christ Jesus", but in 4:18 he says that because of a gift he had abundance and sufficiency of "all things ", and in 1 Tim.6:17 he advises the rich to put their trust in God "who richly provides us with all the things we enjoy";

7) As the last example in Col.1:20 it is said that Jesus would reconcile ALL THINGS to God through his blood, which does not include what does not need reconciliation with God, like loyal angels, even though he says ALL THINGS.

Evidently you are wrong, because in the Scriptures, the Greek word for ALL, not always is absolute, like the example of my family. We need to know the meaning in context.

As I said: NO CHRISTIAN ignores the destruction of the wicked persons. God has been warning of that destruction for a long time now.

DAYS OF ANCIENT ISRAEL
EZEKIEL: “‘I will call for a sword against [Gog] on all my mountains,’ declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.”—Ezek. 38:18-23.
JEREMIAH: “[Jehovah] will personally pass judgment on all humans. And he will put the wicked to the sword.”—Jer. 25:31-33.
DANIEL: “The God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will . . . crush and put an end to all these kingdoms.”—Dan. 2:44.
FIRST CENTURY C.E.
JESUS: “There will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning.”—Matt. 24:21, 22.
PAUL: “Jesus . . . with his powerful angels . . . brings vengeance on those who do not know God.”—2 Thess. 1:6-9.
PETER: “Jehovah’s day will come as a thief, . . . and earth and the works in it will be exposed.”—2 Pet. 3:10.
JOHN: “Out of [Jesus’] mouth protrudes a sharp, long sword with which to strike the nations.”—Rev. 19:11-18.
MODERN TIMES
The Bible is the most widely translated and distributed book of all time
JEHOVAH’S MODERN-DAY SERVANTS . . .
• Distribute billions of copies of Bible literature in hundreds of languages
• Spend hundreds of millions of hours each year preaching


https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102017178

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Re: Organizations

Post #18

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Eloi wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:07 pm You are drawing a wrong conclusion, even though you pretend to draw it from Scripture.

1) Mark 9:23 Jesus says "all things are possible for the one who has faith" and then in 11:24 "all the things you pray and ask for, all the things you pray and ask for". It is obvious that there are some conditions that are implicit for both things to happen, even if Jesus used the expression ALL (G3956);

2) In Mark.13:23 he says "I have told you all things beforehand", but in John 16: 4,12 he says that there are things that he did not tell them, and that the spirit would tell them in the future;
Mark and John here are not temporally comparable. John does indicate that Christ did not tell all that he could have from the beginning (of his ministry), but Mark indicates that he is, now, at that point, now telling them all things including the things he had not told them earlier, i'e
So be on your guard; I have (now) told you everything ahead of time.
Eloi wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:07 pm 3) Paul used the same expression when he said "I am trying to please all people in all things" (1Cor.10:33) and "love believes everything" (1Cor.13:7); evidently it is not an ABSOLUTE "all" neither here;

4) In 1 Cor. 6:12 and 10:23 Paul says that "not all things are advantageous", but in 2Cor.12:19 he says that "all that we do is to build you up";

5) In Col.1:18, Heb.2: 8 and other texts it is said that ALL THINGS were submitted under the feet of Jesus, but in 1Cor.15: 27,28 the Father is excluded despite having used the expression ALL THINGS and in Heb.2: 8 it is said that at that time not everything was submitted under the feet of Jesus (apart from the Father);

6) In Phil. 3:7,8 Paul says that he "consider[s] all things to be loss on account of the excelling value of the knowledge of Christ Jesus", but in 4:18 he says that because of a gift he had abundance and sufficiency of "all things ", and in 1 Tim.6:17 he advises the rich to put their trust in God "who richly provides us with all the things we enjoy";

7) As the last example in Col.1:20 it is said that Jesus would reconcile ALL THINGS to God through his blood, which does not include what does not need reconciliation with God, like loyal angels, even though he says ALL THINGS.

Evidently you are wrong, because in the Scriptures, the Greek word for ALL, not always is absolute, like the example of my family. We need to know the meaning in context.

As I said: NO CHRISTIAN ignores the destruction of the wicked persons. God has been warning of that destruction for a long time now.

DAYS OF ANCIENT ISRAEL
EZEKIEL: “‘I will call for a sword against [Gog] on all my mountains,’ declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.”—Ezek. 38:18-23.
JEREMIAH: “[Jehovah] will personally pass judgment on all humans. And he will put the wicked to the sword.”—Jer. 25:31-33.
DANIEL: “The God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will . . . crush and put an end to all these kingdoms.”—Dan. 2:44.
FIRST CENTURY C.E.
JESUS: “There will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning.”—Matt. 24:21, 22.
PAUL: “Jesus . . . with his powerful angels . . . brings vengeance on those who do not know God.”—2 Thess. 1:6-9.
PETER: “Jehovah’s day will come as a thief, . . . and earth and the works in it will be exposed.”—2 Pet. 3:10.
JOHN: “Out of [Jesus’] mouth protrudes a sharp, long sword with which to strike the nations.”—Rev. 19:11-18.
MODERN TIMES
The Bible is the most widely translated and distributed book of all time
JEHOVAH’S MODERN-DAY SERVANTS . . .
• Distribute billions of copies of Bible literature in hundreds of languages
• Spend hundreds of millions of hours each year preaching


https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102017178
I'll address your other points when time permits.
When one has eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

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Re: Organizations

Post #19

Post by Eloi »

Do as you please, but ALL (absolute) the examples I quoted above have the Greek word we are talking about. The Bible has no contradictions; the problem is in the preconceived idea that the word "all" in the Bible is limited to the absolute meaning, but as you can see it is not like that ... and neither in modern languages, as I showed before.

Obviously, the lack of information leads to wrong conclusions. I don't expect you to change your mind ... but you are already informed.
Last edited by Eloi on Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Organizations

Post #20

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:52 pm




There's more though:
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people
This is almost a paraphrasing of 1 Cor 15:22.

Yes (because the word as pointed out has a very broad meaning) but the "all" (+noun) still equates to every/any individual not the whole of the the group. The Greeks had other words more usually used for the whole (halos/hapas). The point being it is not to be taken for granted the word that "pas" must mean the total of a group, it can do but it can equally (depending on context and usage) mean anyone in said group.

ALL IN CHRIST
CONCLUSION : Given the primary meaning of the greek word -> ""all" (pas) in Christ will live" can be understood to mean "Anyone in Christ will live" ie. "anyone/everyone.... that gets in Christ will live" not that the totality of humanity take this necessary step. Given Jesus condemned certain individuals to gehenna, it is reasonable to conclude this to be the more scripturally sound reading
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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