A SPIRIT WORLD

Exploring the details of Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Eloi
Guru
Posts: 1097
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:31 pm
Has thanked: 31 times
Been thanked: 118 times

A SPIRIT WORLD

Post #1

Post by Eloi »

The Bible shows that our material world was second in order of existence. The first inhabited world that existed was a world that is invisible to us, but is inhabited by millions of intelligent beings.

The Bible places it in the heavens, but since our physical concepts of dimensions are based on the way we look at the world, it might as well be something like a different dimension, where "above", "below", "before " and "behind" may have a different meaning, or none at all.

Jesus told his apostles that he would take them wherever he was going next. He told them that he would prepare a place for them, because according to him "in the house of [his] Father there are many abodes."

John 14:1 “Do not let YOUR hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God, exercise faith also in me. 2 In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told YOU, because I am going my way to prepare a place for YOU. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for YOU, I am coming again and will receive YOU home to myself, that where I am YOU also may be. ..."

We, Jehovah's Witnesses know that although the spirits do not have bodies of flesh and blood like us, they have another kind of body with which they distinguish themselves as individuals in that kind of world where they live. We call that kind of body a "spiritual body," as the Scripture calls it. We believe that the Logos of God, who was later born as Jesus, had such a body next to God. Do you agree?

User avatar
theophile
Guru
Posts: 1216
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:09 pm
Has thanked: 39 times
Been thanked: 79 times

Re: A SPIRIT WORLD

Post #2

Post by theophile »

Eloi wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:03 pm The Bible shows that our material world was second in order of existence. The first inhabited world that existed was a world that is invisible to us, but is inhabited by millions of intelligent beings.

The Bible places it in the heavens, but since our physical concepts of dimensions are based on the way we look at the world, it might as well be something like a different dimension, where "above", "below", "before " and "behind" may have a different meaning, or none at all.

Jesus told his apostles that he would take them wherever he was going next. He told them that he would prepare a place for them, because according to him "in the house of [his] Father there are many abodes."

John 14:1 “Do not let YOUR hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God, exercise faith also in me. 2 In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told YOU, because I am going my way to prepare a place for YOU. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for YOU, I am coming again and will receive YOU home to myself, that where I am YOU also may be. ..."

We, Jehovah's Witnesses know that although the spirits do not have bodies of flesh and blood like us, they have another kind of body with which they distinguish themselves as individuals in that kind of world where they live. We call that kind of body a "spiritual body," as the Scripture calls it. We believe that the Logos of God, who was later born as Jesus, had such a body next to God. Do you agree?
It seems to me there was only one world created in the bible, so not sure how you can say "the bible shows that our material world was second in order of existence." That's not indicated anywhere in Genesis 1, as would be expected if it was the case...

So while there is definitely something called 'spirit' in the bible, I would hesitate to oppose the world we know to some kind of analogous spirit world. I would instead suggest that 'spirit' is something that 'exists' in the one and only world we know (alongside and even inhabiting material beings).

I think a spirit is ultimately not much different from how we use the term in an everyday sense. Not a ghost, but something more like the 'Christmas spirit' as an easy example. It's a spirit of giving that arguable has a wispy reality of its own but that can also inhabit us and have real impact in the world.

Eloi
Guru
Posts: 1097
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:31 pm
Has thanked: 31 times
Been thanked: 118 times

Re: A SPIRIT WORLD

Post #3

Post by Eloi »

The simple fact that angels exist, already proves it.

The Bible says that when the earth was being prepared to put life on it, the "sons of God" in heavens "began shouting in applause".

Job 38:4 Where were you when I founded the earth?
Tell me, if you think you understand.
 5 Who set its measurements, in case you know,
Or who stretched a measuring line across it?
 6 Into what were its pedestals sunk,
Or who laid its cornerstone,
 7 When the morning stars joyfully cried out together,
And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?

In Gen. 1:1 the rest of the non-terrestrial creation is framed with the expression "the heavens and the earth".

Gen. 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

When the creative days of Genesis began to be counted as "first", "second", "third", "fourth", "fifth", "sixth" and a "seventh", it was only referring to what was being created IN THIS PLANET ... not to the already existing outside world, where the sons of God were, "shouting in applause".

User avatar
theophile
Guru
Posts: 1216
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:09 pm
Has thanked: 39 times
Been thanked: 79 times

Re: A SPIRIT WORLD

Post #4

Post by theophile »

Eloi wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:52 pm The simple fact that angels exist, already proves it.

The Bible says that when the earth was being prepared to put life on it, the "sons of God" in heavens "began shouting in applause".

Job 38:4 Where were you when I founded the earth?
Tell me, if you think you understand.
 5 Who set its measurements, in case you know,
Or who stretched a measuring line across it?
 6 Into what were its pedestals sunk,
Or who laid its cornerstone,
 7 When the morning stars joyfully cried out together,
And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?

In Gen. 1:1 the rest of the non-terrestrial creation is framed with the expression "the heavens and the earth".

Gen. 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

When the creative days of Genesis began to be counted as "first", "second", "third", "fourth", "fifth", "sixth" and a "seventh", it was only referring to what was being created IN THIS PLANET ... not to the already existing outside world, where the sons of God were, "shouting in applause".
None of this proves there are two worlds. My suggestion that these 'spirit beings' inhabit the one and only world we know remains the simpler explanation.

But you're right to say there is an assumed context to Genesis 1. However, I don't think it's a spirit world. Genesis 1:2 gives us explicit insight on the matter.

"Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."

So basically you have God and the deep. That is the context, i.e., God and some vast cosmic ocean (that never gets created for all we know).

And God knows what's inhabiting that cosmic ocean... (But again, speaks a lot closer to the world we know.)

Eloi
Guru
Posts: 1097
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:31 pm
Has thanked: 31 times
Been thanked: 118 times

Re: A SPIRIT WORLD

Post #5

Post by Eloi »

It does "proves there are two worlds" ... for the people this subforum was created for: people who trust biblical teachings.

Thanks for your opinion.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 18071
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 431 times
Been thanked: 656 times
Contact:

Re: A SPIRIT WORLD

Post #6

Post by JehovahsWitness »

theophile wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:33 pm
None of this proves there are two worlds.
I think confusion can raise from the word "world" (gk: kosmos) which biblically is strongly linked with human society. The fact is, as has been demonstrated, biblically there were intelligent beings before our world came into existence. Colloqually we talk about the "spirit world" but biblically that might be more accurate to speak about a spirit "realm", or God's heavenly "organisation", Gods spirit "family" .
In any case without splitting hairs about terminology , the idea is definitely biblical of an organised hierarchical system of intelligent beings that interact and coexist and exists in parallel to out own material world.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
theophile
Guru
Posts: 1216
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:09 pm
Has thanked: 39 times
Been thanked: 79 times

Re: A SPIRIT WORLD

Post #7

Post by theophile »

It does "proves there are two worlds" ... for the people this subforum was created for: people who trust biblical teachings.

Thanks for your opinion.
A bit abrupt. But what makes you think I don't trust biblical teachings? I do. I'm just arguing with you about what they are. (The point of this channel, right?)

I am referencing Genesis 1 to make my point, which is the one place we would expect to settle the argument on what worlds exist and what order they are created. What you are suggesting is nowhere said.

User avatar
theophile
Guru
Posts: 1216
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:09 pm
Has thanked: 39 times
Been thanked: 79 times

Re: A SPIRIT WORLD

Post #8

Post by theophile »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:24 pm
theophile wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:33 pm
None of this proves there are two worlds.
I think confusion can raise from the word "world" (gk: kosmos) which biblically is strongly linked with human society. The fact is, as has been demonstrated, biblically there were intelligent beings before our world came into existence. Colloqually we talk about the "spirit world" but biblically that might be more accurate to speak about a spirit "realm", or God's heavenly "organisation", Gods spirit "family" .
In any case without splitting hairs about terminology , the idea is definitely biblical of an organised hierarchical system of intelligent beings that interact and coexist and exists in parallel to out own material world.
Spirit beings (and family) is one thing, but a separate spirit world (an entire cosmos), is something else. Again, there is only one world, and in that world there are both spiritual and material beings that interact. I think it's a dangerous game talking of a wholly separate spirit world running in parallel...

So while I would probably argue against the agency (and intelligence) of those spirit beings, I would never argue against their existence. (Take the children of God for instance from Job: these are ones like Jesus, right? Not spirit beings but to my point the perfect union of spirit and material...)

So you tell me if we're saying different things. I think we have strong common ground but also substantial difference.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 18071
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 431 times
Been thanked: 656 times
Contact:

Re: A SPIRIT WORLD

Post #9

Post by JehovahsWitness »

theophile wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:23 pm I think we have strong common ground but also substantial difference.
I hope I didnt give the impression I was presenting your personal views (I'm sure there are as many guesses about the spirit realm as there are shoes) I was simply presenting what the bible says on the matter.
In any case without splitting hairs about terminology , the idea is definitely biblical of an [1] organised [2] hierarchical system of [3] intelligent beings that [4] interact and coexist and [5] exists in parallel to out own material world.
You may challenge me on what I wrote - I count [5] different points - if you believe you know your bible well enough to do so; otherwise, your ideas are your own; thank you for sharing them.



JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
theophile
Guru
Posts: 1216
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:09 pm
Has thanked: 39 times
Been thanked: 79 times

Re: A SPIRIT WORLD

Post #10

Post by theophile »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:06 pm
theophile wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:23 pm I think we have strong common ground but also substantial difference.
I hope I didnt give the impression I was presenting your personal views (I'm sure there are as many guesses about the spirit realm as there are shoes) I was simply presenting what the bible says on the matter.
In any case without splitting hairs about terminology , the idea is definitely biblical of an [1] organised [2] hierarchical system of [3] intelligent beings that [4] interact and coexist and [5] exists in parallel to out own material world.
You may challenge me on what I wrote - I count [5] different points - if you believe you know your bible well enough to do so; otherwise, your ideas are your own; thank you for sharing them.



JW
Even if I accept all five of those points, they don't add up to a separate spirit world (where world = cosmos) that per the OP is "invisible to us". All it requires is spirit beings inhabiting (to my point) the one and only world we know.

So that's the question (the question of the OP as I take it). Is there or is there not a separate spirit world per the bible? i.e., an invisible cosmos presumably on a wholly other plane than this one? With its own 'spirit version' of space and time... It's own celestial bodies... It's own cities and natural spaces... All populated with its own spirit beings all going about their business...

It all feels a bit farfetched, and we should go with the simplest explanation that fits the biblical evidence, which is one world inhabited by both kinds of beings.

But okay if you don't want to entertain that. I understand it may blow up some core beliefs.

Post Reply