Why Was Satan . . .

Exploring the details of Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Miles
Prodigy
Posts: 3353
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:19 pm
Has thanked: 257 times
Been thanked: 927 times

Why Was Satan . . .

Post #1

Post by Miles »

.


. . . given power to tempt man, thus leading man into sin and eventually causing him to go to hell?


............................. Image


Couldn't god have done it without Satan's help?



.

User avatar
Miles
Prodigy
Posts: 3353
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:19 pm
Has thanked: 257 times
Been thanked: 927 times

Re: Why Was Satan . . .

Post #21

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 3:39 am
Miles wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 3:30 am There! See, I just said it.
And I'm sure you believe sincerely with all your heart that what you said it true. However I'll just remind you that believing what you say doesn't make it true.
Just as believing what you say doesn't make it true.


.

User avatar
Miles
Prodigy
Posts: 3353
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:19 pm
Has thanked: 257 times
Been thanked: 927 times

Re: Why Was Satan . . .

Post #22

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:01 am
Miles wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:06 pm
Who ultimately decides in the absolute what is right and what is wrong? You?
Why not?
Because for any human who, by definition is limited in lifespan, experience and knowledge to set himself up as the the universal judge what is acceptable for all intelligent beings for all time would be the ultimate in folly. No human (not even you my friend) is in a position to properly assess every action, its motives and circumstances and see the ultimate gravity of said action as it impacts on others as far into the future as they wil exist. No human can see, let alone understand the entire scope of existence and judge what and how that must be assessed to ensure the best of all possible outcomes for everyone concerned ... for all time.

That's why not.
If I don't, or you don't, or anyone else doesn't (your fallible god has nicely disqualified himself), then I guess there's no such thing as an absolute right and or wrong, which I'm quite fine with. :approve:


.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 18072
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 431 times
Been thanked: 658 times
Contact:

Re: Why Was Satan . . .

Post #23

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:11 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:01 am
Miles wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:06 pm
Who ultimately decides in the absolute what is right and what is wrong? You?
Why not?
Because for any human who, by definition is limited in lifespan, experience and knowledge to set himself up as the the universal judge what is acceptable for all intelligent beings for all time would be the ultimate in folly. No human (not even you my friend) is in a position to properly assess every action, its motives and circumstances and see the ultimate gravity of said action as it impacts on others as far into the future as they wil exist. No human can see, let alone understand the entire scope of existence and judge what and how that must be assessed to ensure the best of all possible outcomes for everyone concerned ... for all time.

That's why not.

...your fallible god has nicely disqualified himself...

Would this be another example of you "saying" what you believe to be true?

The God of the bible* is presented as being infaillible, incorruptible, infinite and omniscient; in short, to be the ONLY one with the needed qualities and capacities to declare what is right and what is wrong for everyone. I think even an atheist can recognise that should such a God exist, he would be better suited than any human to decide absolute right and or wrong.







JW


[ * ] I am ONLY mentioning the bible to show what Christianity says in line with subforum guidelines, not to prove that a statement or story therein is true. ​I am not presenting the bible as authorative or proof of truth and have no intention to add an argument to that end in this subforum See LINKS for details: viewtopic.php?p=213491#p213491
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

nobspeople
Prodigy
Posts: 3191
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
Has thanked: 1510 times
Been thanked: 817 times

Re: Why Was Satan . . .

Post #24

Post by nobspeople »

Miles wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:29 pm .


. . . given power to tempt man, thus leading man into sin and eventually causing him to go to hell?


............................. Image


Couldn't god have done it without Satan's help?



.
God seems to need 'help' from others to do many things. Which is odd for an all powerful, all capable being (as some believe).
If god can be both a man and a god (like some religions believe) and if god was before all things (again, like some believe) I see no reason to think satan isn't god in some part. Thus, god did do the tempting.
Even if this isn't the case - satan is a real, individual being - this still means god allowed satan to tempt others. So which is worse: god masquerading are satan to do the tempting or god allowing it to happen at all?
Six of one, half a dozen of the other, really.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

myth-one.com
Savant
Posts: 6070
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:16 pm
Has thanked: 22 times
Been thanked: 58 times
Contact:

Re: Why Was Satan . . .

Post #25

Post by myth-one.com »

Miles wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:48 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:42 am
Miles wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:29 pm .
Why was Satan given power to tempt man, thus leading man into sin and eventually causing him to go to hell?

Couldn't god have done it without Satan's help?
Satan was given power over the earth long before the creation of man:
Which can be found in what chapter and verse(s)?
.
Genesis 1:1 wrote:In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Luke 4:5-7 wrote:And the devil, taking him up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whosoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 18072
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 431 times
Been thanked: 658 times
Contact:

Re: Why Was Satan . . .

Post #26

Post by JehovahsWitness »

myth-one.com wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:19 am
Miles wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:48 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:42 am
Satan was given power over the earth long before the creation of man:
Which can be found in what chapter and verse(s)?
.
Genesis 1:1 wrote:In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Luke 4:5-7 wrote:And the devil, taking him up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whosoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
How does this prove that Satan was given power over the earth long before the creation of man?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 7443
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 633 times
Been thanked: 148 times

Re: Why Was Satan . . .

Post #27

Post by onewithhim »

Miles wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:17 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:08 am DID GOD COMMISSION SATAN TO TEMPT HUMANS?

Image

Satan wasn't "given power to temps man" as in, comissioned by God to temps humans, Satan made that decision himself. God simply didn't kill him (Satan) once he (Satan) had gone ahead and acted on his decision.
In essence then, god committed a "sin" of omission. (Being omniscient god would have known what Satan was about to do.)

sin of omission
"a sin committed because of neglecting to do what is right.
source

In this case, stop Satan.


.
It has been said, and I agree, that God can choose to not know something. If he is all-powerful, wouldn't that be the case? He chose to not know what Adam and Eve and Satan would do. That's the only way He could say anything to humans or angels with a straight face. Many of us can sing, but do we sing all the time? We might choose not to sing. The same with Jehovah. He gave His creations the ability to think for themselves, and He holds them responsible for what they choose to do.

Adam or Eve could've stopped Satan, but they chose to listen to him. The deed was done....the fall of the human race. Would Jehovah have proven anything by destroying Satan and even Adam and Eve? He could have---He is all-powerful. But the question would still be in millions of angels' minds. Did Satan have a point when he said what he said at Genesis 3:4? Was he telling the truth? Jehovah let it all play out, and humans would have the privilege of showing that Satan was a liar.

User avatar
Miles
Prodigy
Posts: 3353
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:19 pm
Has thanked: 257 times
Been thanked: 927 times

Re: Why Was Satan . . .

Post #28

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:21 am
Miles wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:11 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:01 am
Miles wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:06 pm
Who ultimately decides in the absolute what is right and what is wrong? You?
Why not?
Because for any human who, by definition is limited in lifespan, experience and knowledge to set himself up as the the universal judge what is acceptable for all intelligent beings for all time would be the ultimate in folly. No human (not even you my friend) is in a position to properly assess every action, its motives and circumstances and see the ultimate gravity of said action as it impacts on others as far into the future as they wil exist. No human can see, let alone understand the entire scope of existence and judge what and how that must be assessed to ensure the best of all possible outcomes for everyone concerned ... for all time.

That's why not.

...your fallible god has nicely disqualified himself...

Would this be another example of you "saying" what you believe to be true?
No.
Do you think that anyone who has shown himself to be fallible should have the right to dictate absolutes? I don't---as a matter of note, moral absolutes is an absurd ethical concept to begin with.
In any case, from simply reading the Bible we find that your god is not so grand after all. He makes mistakes (made Saul the king of Israel, which he regretted doing), makes immoral judgements (slavery is just hunky-dory), creates evil (Isaiah 45:7 "I . . . create evil: I the Lord do all these things."), commits atrocities (has innocent women, children, and infants killed for no better reason than that they exist), and lacks a sense of proportion (has two bears maul and kill 42 kids for making fun of someone's baldness), an act that should surely take him out of the running as Dictator of Moral Absolutes.

The God of the bible* is presented as being infaillible, incorruptible, infinite and omniscient; in short, to be the ONLY one with the needed qualities and capacities to declare what is right and what is wrong for everyone.
A concept predicated on the need to make the Jewish-Christian god the greatest god of all. So that's what the Hebrews did. They fashioned a god whose character was almost flawless. Some of the exceptions, which I've listed above, I imagine came about because Moses et al. saw them as acceptable: "There's nothing wrong about beating a slave to death as long as he doesn't die within a day or two. Heck, it's done every week. But hey, see those two guys behind the shed getting it on with each other? Gees! I hate that stuff. They should be put to death; and I bet god would agree with me. I know!" He picks up his pen and starts writing "Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman, h̶e̶ both . . . ."



.

User avatar
Miles
Prodigy
Posts: 3353
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:19 pm
Has thanked: 257 times
Been thanked: 927 times

Re: Why Was Satan . . .

Post #29

Post by Miles »

myth-one.com wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:19 am
Miles wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:48 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:42 am
Miles wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:29 pm .
Why was Satan given power to tempt man, thus leading man into sin and eventually causing him to go to hell?

Couldn't god have done it without Satan's help?
Satan was given power over the earth long before the creation of man:
Which can be found in what chapter and verse(s)?
.
Genesis 1:1 wrote:In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Luke 4:5-7 wrote:And the devil, taking him up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whosoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
Not a thing about Satan being given power over the earth long before the creation of man. Want to try again?:


.

User avatar
Miles
Prodigy
Posts: 3353
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:19 pm
Has thanked: 257 times
Been thanked: 927 times

Re: Why Was Satan . . .

Post #30

Post by Miles »

onewithhim wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:08 pm
Miles wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:17 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:08 am DID GOD COMMISSION SATAN TO TEMPT HUMANS?

Image

Satan wasn't "given power to temps man" as in, comissioned by God to temps humans, Satan made that decision himself. God simply didn't kill him (Satan) once he (Satan) had gone ahead and acted on his decision.
In essence then, god committed a "sin" of omission. (Being omniscient god would have known what Satan was about to do.)

sin of omission
"a sin committed because of neglecting to do what is right.
source

In this case, stop Satan.


.
It has been said, and I agree, that God can choose to not know something. If he is all-powerful, wouldn't that be the case?
But how would he know what not to know if he never knew it?



.

Post Reply