Is Christ the Savior of All Mankind?

Exploring the details of Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Revelations won
Sage
Posts: 830
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:13 pm
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 27 times

Is Christ the Savior of All Mankind?

Post #1

Post by Revelations won »

Perhaps another way of asking this question is, does the mighty atonement of Jesus the Christ available to ALL of God’s children?

If not what are the exemptions if any?

Are there any that have lived in mortality that are beyond the scope of repentance?

2ndpillar2
Sage
Posts: 842
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:47 am
Been thanked: 18 times

Re: Is Christ the Savior of All Mankind?

Post #21

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

Brightfame52 wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 3:00 pm Christ is the Saviour of His Body Eph 5:23

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
OMG, are you saying that the women should remain silent in the church, and submit to men? I hope there are no "woke" persons of clout who would hear you say such a thing. According to Revelation 2:2, false apostles were preaching in Ephesus, are you sure your source is reliable? And how did "Christ" save your "Christian" family members who have died and been buried? Were they saved from disease/sin, or death, the result of sin (Jeremiah 31:30)? I don't know, what you say is a little bit sketchy.

Brightfame52
Sage
Posts: 815
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2022 5:33 am
Location: In the heavenlies in Christ
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 6 times

Re: Is Christ the Savior of All Mankind?

Post #22

Post by Brightfame52 »

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #21]

Sorry I dont know what you are talking about.

2ndpillar2
Sage
Posts: 842
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:47 am
Been thanked: 18 times

Re: Is Christ the Savior of All Mankind?

Post #23

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

Brightfame52 wrote: Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:06 am [Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #21]

Sorry I dont know what you are talking about.
That could be a problem. Revelation 2:2 reports that false apostles were working in Ephesus. Your quote was from a self professed apostle named Paul, who was working in Ephesus. And no "Christian" has been "saved" from "sleep"/death, as taught by Paul. The "saved" taught by Paul was a reference from Paul to Joel 2:31-32, which is taught out of context, and the "saved", as in "delivered"/"survive", referred to, were those "on Mount Zion" and "in Jerusalem". As for your quote, if the "church" must submit to "Christ", then to keep your quote consistent, then the wife must submit to the husband. Something that is not acceptable in today's woke society, which could get you cancelled as with regard to your job or business.

2ndpillar2
Sage
Posts: 842
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:47 am
Been thanked: 18 times

Re: Is Christ the Savior of All Mankind?

Post #24

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

Revelations won wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 8:47 am Perhaps another way of asking this question is, does the mighty atonement of Jesus the Christ available to ALL of God’s children?

If not what are the exemptions if any?

Are there any that have lived in mortality that are beyond the scope of repentance?
God's children, those who do the will of God, do not need what you call "atonement", for whatever you mean by that. As for the children of the devil (1 John 3:8), they need to repent and produce fruit in line with their repentance. No one dies for another (Jeremiah 31:30). "Every person dies for their own iniquities" (Jeremiah 31:30). As for is anyone "beyond the scope of repentance". Apparently, the false prophet, and the beast are beyond "repentance" with regards to Revelation 20:10. The Mormons may preach that the dead can repent, but you have to take what they say with a pinch of salt. As for the "demon spirits" of the false prophet and the beast (Revelation 16:13), they may still be at work doing what is their role, but their characters and role were determined at the foundation of the world, and like with the devil, change may not be an option.

User avatar
Purple Knight
Prodigy
Posts: 3465
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:00 pm
Has thanked: 1129 times
Been thanked: 729 times

Re: Is Christ the Savior of All Mankind?

Post #25

Post by Purple Knight »

Revelations won wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 8:47 amAre there any that have lived in mortality that are beyond the scope of repentance?
Yes, Gentiles.

This is my personal take on the lore and you don't have to agree, but here it is:

There is a reason this religion is constructed so that everyone is guilty. There is a reason that there are religions and gods at all. And that reason is simply this: When you die, you are judged according to your own beliefs and nobody else's.

So when you say, "I accept Jesus," you are giving over your soul to be judged by the rules of Jesus under which everyone is guilty. Will he intervene and save you? You are told that he will, he has promised to do so, but he and his father may not even consider you a person in that oaths to you are valid.

Jews and Gentiles have historically not had a very good relationship. Some non-Jews are always enslaving, ruling, or genociding Jews. So Jews have understandable revenge fantasies. And what better revenge fantasy than that all Gentiles go to a lake of fire when they die and burn for all eternity? And what better way to make this happen than to invent Christianity if your worldview is that when you die, you are judged by the god you accept and worship?

Some sources say Hell is non-canonical. It's not emphasised before the New Testament. So here comes this Jesus, whose father is the God of the Chosen People and no one else (God does not change his mind, so when he says he is this, you'd better believe him) to tell you all about Hell and how by his rules, every one of you is guilty, but if you accept him, he'll save you. This is nonsense at first glance and it should be nonsense at thousandth glance. God doesn't need a sacrifice to override his own rules. If he wants to override them, he can. If he wants to follow them, he can. If he wants a sacrifice to be made, he controls how much is enough, and he could take a goat if he pleased to.

If this is all false, it's an understandable revenge fantasy.

If it's all true, you've been tricked into accepting a religion in which you are guilty and you go to Hell. You've also been promised an out, but this out is a lie. You've been promised a contradiction. You've been promised that this box you will get contains this object:

Image

...When it cannot be. It violates the truth of the cosmos that there are no whipping boys, and at the end, you're judged by your own principles... and there are no outs.

Promising an impossible object isn't even much of a lie. The fact that you won't get it, is implicit in its necessary failure to exist, so if I say I'll give you one, by the interpretation I'm sure the authors are using, it's your responsibility to know I won't make good, since I can't possibly do so. I basically just said I'd give you a goobdja, and since there's no such thing as a goobdja, I didn't make a real promise; it was just verbal flatulence, and if you thought you were getting something because your mind invented a goobdja, that's on you.

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 8487
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 2141 times
Been thanked: 2293 times

Re: Is Christ the Savior of All Mankind?

Post #26

Post by Tcg »

2ndpillar2 wrote: Thu Mar 10, 2022 5:28 pm No one dies for another (Jeremiah 31:30). "Every person dies for their own iniquities" (Jeremiah 31:30).
This is not true in the case of the coward murderer and adulterer David:
2 Samuel 12:13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.”

Nathan replied, “The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14 But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for the Lord, the son born to you will die.”

Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

User avatar
Abigail
Student
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2022 5:32 pm
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 6 times

Re: Is Christ the Savior of All Mankind?

Post #27

Post by Abigail »

I think if one first accepts the scripture as written regarding Jesus they'd ask, why would Emmanuel (God with us) come to rescue humanity from the plan God predestined us to enter into?

And why would one accept being saved from God and his judgement of the individual living as God predestined?
“In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way.” *Attributed to President Franklin D. Roosevelt, though this is debated.

2ndpillar2
Sage
Posts: 842
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:47 am
Been thanked: 18 times

Re: Is Christ the Savior of All Mankind?

Post #28

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

Tcg wrote: Thu Mar 10, 2022 7:07 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Thu Mar 10, 2022 5:28 pm No one dies for another (Jeremiah 31:30). "Every person dies for their own iniquities" (Jeremiah 31:30).
This is not true in the case of the coward murderer and adulterer David:
2 Samuel 12:13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.”

Nathan replied, “The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14 But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for the Lord, the son born to you will die.”
Tcg
David confessed his sin, repented, produced good fruit, was punished according to his own judgment against the rich man and the loss of his own son and kingdom, and David was forgiven, and was taken out of the ranks of the living dead and brought back into the fellowship with God. He eventually died, and with the righteous, will rule the nations from Jerusalem (Revelation 20:4 & Zechariah 14 & Ezekiel 37:24), whereas the nations/Gentiles, who survive the "day of the LORD" (Joel 2:31-32), will confess that they have inherited nothing but falsehoods from their fathers. As for yourself, are you forgiven for your sins, do you have to look forward to the coming "great earthquake" sensing you will survive? I don't know, if you live on a sleeping super volcano, or close to it, I am not sure there will be any remains left to give a response. Do you walk with God, or do you walk in the footsteps of Marx, and his humanism? What will be the final conditions of the followers of Marx, such as Venezuala, China, N. Korea, L.A., N.Y., Portland, and Russia? People who live there don't want to know and try to flee if they are able.

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 8904
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 1217 times
Been thanked: 305 times

Re: Is Christ the Savior of All Mankind?

Post #29

Post by onewithhim »

Miles wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 4:47 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 5:58 am
Miles wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 1:12 am

On the other hand we have Deuteronomy 32:22 saying:
"For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."
DEUT 32:22 NWT

For my anger has kindled a fire that will burn to the depths of the Grave, and it will consume the earth and its produce and will set ablaze the foundations of mountains
.
I see nothing in this verse that even mentions the eternal torture of some element of a human that survives their physical death.
Neither do I, but then eternal torture is not the issue, but rather that hell existed as an undesirable place one might end up in after death, and not simply, "Hell => the grave" as onewithhim wrote.


.
As I have written previously, Bible versions take after the KJV and render "Gehenna" and "Hades" and "Tartarus" all as "Hell." Gehenna and Tartarus are completely different than Hades. Hades is the only Greek word that should be translated as "Hell." It is very confusing to get the accurate meaning from the Scriptures when all the words are rendered the same. People should compare many versions to see the difference. Some will leave "Gehenna" as Gehenna. It means a garbage dump outside Jerusalem where things were burned up to nothingness. (The operative word is NOTHING.) Tartarus is rendered as "hell" at 2 Peter 2:4, but it simply means a state of spiritual darkness. The angels that sinned are not in a place called Hell that is a fiery pit, because the scriptures show that they are very much involved in world affairs. (Ephesians 2:2; Luke 4:6; I Peter 5:8)

If we look at the instances where Hades is written in the Greek, we can see clearly how it refers to the grave and not a fiery place of torture.

"The Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulfur...And death and Hades were hurled into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:10,14)

Now, if hell can be hurled anywhere, I would like to know how. And how can "death" be hurled? It is obviously allegorical for the complete destruction and elimination of death and the grave. So clearly "Hades" means the common grave of mankind.


And, there is no proof that "Hell" is a place where people are conscious. Nothing in the scriptures indicate this.

2ndpillar2
Sage
Posts: 842
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:47 am
Been thanked: 18 times

Re: Is Christ the Savior of All Mankind?

Post #30

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

Abigail wrote: Thu Mar 10, 2022 8:42 pm I think if one first accepts the scripture as written regarding Jesus they'd ask, why would Emmanuel (God with us) come to rescue humanity from the plan God predestined us to enter into?

And why would one accept being saved from God and his judgement of the individual living as God predestined?
No one is "saved" from the "day of the LORD" (Joel 2:31-32). They merely "survive" the "great earthquake", convulsions of the earth, and the stars (one-hundred-pound hail stones)(multiheaded war heads from men) raining down on men (Revelation 16:18-21) & (Matthew 24:29). Man can either repent of the path they are on, or men will kill each other, and the earth will show its displeasure. The message that you "surely shall not die" (Genesis 3:4) is the message of the "serpent", and the message of his messenger, the false prophet Paul.

Post Reply