2# Is death ... the end?

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2# Is death ... the end?

Post #1

Post by Wootah »

Psalm 73:23-25
Holman Christian Standard Bible
23 Yet I am always with You;
You hold my right hand.
24 You guide me with Your counsel,
and afterward You will take me up in glory.
25 Who do I have in heaven but You?
And I desire nothing on earth but You.
Psalm 73 is saying that God guides and then afterwards, after they die, they are taken up in glory to God?

Anyone want to disagree and explain how it really means the psalmist is stuck dead in a grave and tell me how glorious that is?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: 2# Is death ... the end?

Post #11

Post by tam »

Peace to you all,


Paul was not suggesting that Christians who have fallen asleep (died) have been destroyed.


He is simply making a point (in contrast to the false things some were saying - that there is no resurrection, that Christ was not resurrected). Paul is pointing out the error and absurdity in that, saying that if there is no resurrection, their faith is in vain, there is no sleep to awaken from, and death is the end. Paul is not saying that is true... He goes on to add that there IS a resurrection, those asleep (in death) do awaken, and our faith is not in vain.


I mean, just look at the meaning of the word that jw posted. Apollumi, meaning to destroy fully. If something is destroyed fully, there is nothing to resurrect.

Obviously Paul is not suggesting that Christians who have died in Christ have been fully destroyed. That is absurd.

The first death is a 'sleep', and there is a resurrection from it. The second death is eternal BECAUSE it destroys fully. Hence, there can be no resurrection from that second death.



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Re: 2# Is death ... the end?

Post #12

Post by tam »

Peace again,

In addition to the post above, no, sleep is not being paralled with PERISH.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:41 pm
Wootah wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:08 pm
There is no 'in death' in the original text.
The point is that even anointed Christians who "sleep" have perished, redeemed from that state only by a ressurrection. If you need to look up a word it's PERISH because that's what "sleep" is parelled with.

Image
Source: http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebibl ... 6.htm#S622


The word Paul uses for sleep here is koimao:
The KJV translates Strong's G2837 in the following manner: sleep (10x), fall asleep (4x), be asleep (2x), fall on sleep (1x), be dead (1x).
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon ... jv/tr/0-1/
Not apollumi.
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Re: 2# Is death ... the end?

Post #13

Post by Wootah »

Eloi wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:32 pm Well, according Paul that "sleeping" would be "perished" were it not for the subsequent resurrection. That means there IS NO life in between.
Yes. But since Jesus did resurrect then we do not perish. Hooray!
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: 2# Is death ... the end?

Post #14

Post by tam »

Wootah wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 11:33 pm
Eloi wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:32 pm Well, according Paul that "sleeping" would be "perished" were it not for the subsequent resurrection. That means there IS NO life in between.
Yes. But since Jesus did resurrect then we do not perish. Hooray!
Yes, and that is really the whole point that Paul was making.

We do sleep (until the resurrection), but that sleep is temporary.



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Re: 2# Is death ... the end?

Post #15

Post by Wootah »

tam wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 11:36 pm
Wootah wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 11:33 pm
Eloi wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:32 pm Well, according Paul that "sleeping" would be "perished" were it not for the subsequent resurrection. That means there IS NO life in between.
Yes. But since Jesus did resurrect then we do not perish. Hooray!
Yes, and that is really the whole point that Paul was making.

We do sleep (until the resurrection), but that sleep is temporary.



Peace again to you all!
According to psalm 73, we are taken up to glory after we die. The Bible is saying, "do not be deceived by the corpse in the ground. It is merely sleeping."
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: 2# Is death ... the end?

Post #16

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
Wootah wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 4:44 pm
tam wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 11:36 pm
Wootah wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 11:33 pm
Eloi wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:32 pm Well, according Paul that "sleeping" would be "perished" were it not for the subsequent resurrection. That means there IS NO life in between.
Yes. But since Jesus did resurrect then we do not perish. Hooray!
Yes, and that is really the whole point that Paul was making.

We do sleep (until the resurrection), but that sleep is temporary.



Peace again to you all!
According to psalm 73, we are taken up to glory after we die. The Bible is saying, "do not be deceived by the corpse in the ground. It is merely sleeping."
It just says afterward you will take me into glory. It does not say when afterward.

Look at what is said to Daniel:

As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”



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your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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Re: 2# Is death ... the end?

Post #17

Post by Wootah »

tam wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:05 pm
It just says afterward you will take me into glory. It does not say when afterward.

Look at what is said to Daniel:

As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
The interpretations of yourself and JW are like a parent promising their kid the latest toy and then coming home with a knockoff or something far lesser.
  • For JW, glory means wherever God leads you, but God led nearly all the disciples to a violent death and then they lie there dead for 1000s of years / sarcastic glory!.
  • For Tam, sure I'll take you to a movie and ice cream, afterwards, and by afterwards I mean 1000s and 1000s of years afterwards. It's how bad parents behave. If parents make a promise they should keep it. Kids know.
  • Or for sure when you are dead you are living in God's memory, /sarcastic hooray!
The Daniel quote doesn't help your argument either. Rest doesn't mean death either. Don't the Hebrews have a word for death? Why the euphemism from God?

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=hebrew+word+f ... 1-1&ia=web

It's because death isn't the end. There has to be a point where you look at all the times God doesn't just say plainly, "Daniel go on your way and when you die at the end you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."
Genesis 2 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.

2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
Do you think God died when he rested?

End times in revelation and the resurrection is judgement day for the bad guys and a new creation is part of that. Part of that new creation is that we become embodied again. In the meantime, we remain with God.
Last edited by Wootah on Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2# Is death ... the end?

Post #18

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Wootah wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 4:49 pm
  • For JW, glory means wherever God leads you ....

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES take a wholistic approach to all our bible understanding meaning that we take any word according to context, original meaning and how it fits in with other related scripture. GLORY basically means weight /value and depending on who and what is being spoken about can manifest in dozens of different ways. In future if you want to present our beliefs on a particular point, for accuracy it might be best go straight to source.

Below is our official statement on GLORY. So more accurately, for JW Glory means ....
GLORY

In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word most often translated “glory” is ka·vohdhʹ, which basically has the sense of “heaviness.” (Compare Na 2:9, where ka·vohdhʹ is rendered “heavy amount,” and 1Sa 4:18, where the related adjective ka·vedhʹ is rendered “heavy.”) Thus, glory may refer to anything that makes a person or a thing seem weighty or impressive, such as material wealth (Ps 49:16), position, or reputation. (Ge 45:13) The Greek equivalent of ka·vohdhʹ is doʹxa, which originally meant “opinion; reputation,” but in the Christian Greek Scriptures came to mean “glory.” Among its senses are repute or “honor” (Lu 14:10), splendor (Lu 2:9; 1Co 15:40), and that which brings honor to its owner or maker (1Co 11:7).

Often the Scriptures mention glory in connection with Jehovah God. As to its meaning in these cases the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, edited by G. Kittel, explains: “If in relation to man [ka·vohdhʹ] denotes that which makes him impressive and demands recognition, whether in terms of material possessions or striking [dignity or importance], in relation to God it implies that which makes God impressive to man.” (Translated by G. Bromiley, 1971, Vol. II, p. 238) So glory may refer to an impressive evidence of God’s almighty power. Thus, the visible heavenly bodies are “declaring the glory of God.” (Ps 19:1) On Mount Sinai, “Jehovah’s glory” was evidenced by such fearsome manifestations as “a devouring fire.”​—Ex 24:16-18; compare 16:7, 10; 40:34.

Concerning Jesus’ first miracle, the Bible says that “he made his glory manifest.” (Joh 2:11) Glory here refers to an impressive evidence of miraculous power identifying Jesus as the promised Messiah. (Compare Joh 11:40-44.) On another occasion, Jesus prayed: “Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.” (Joh 17:5) Jesus used the term here to refer to the exalted state that he enjoyed in heaven before coming to earth. In answer to that prayer, Jehovah “glorified his Servant, Jesus,” by resurrecting him and bringing him back into heaven. (Ac 3:13-15) At Jesus’ transfiguration the apostles who were present “saw his glory.” (Lu 9:29-32) This has to do with the regal “magnificence” that Jesus was to receive at his “presence” in Kingdom power.​—2Pe 1:16.

God’s servants are admonished to “do all things for God’s glory.” (1Co 10:31) God’s glory is made manifest through the honor or praise that is given him. One’s conduct can cause others to ‘give glory to God.’ (Mt 5:16; 1Pe 2:12) Christians who truly respond to Jehovah’s direction are “transformed . . . from glory to glory,” continually making progress in reflecting God’s glory. (2Co 3:18) On the other hand, we should beware of seeking glory from men, as did some in the first century. (Joh 12:42, 43) Both Jesus and the apostle Paul set a fine example in not seeking or accepting glory from men.​—Joh 5:41; 8:50; 1Th 2:5, 6.

There's more but thats perhaps enough to get you started on what we Jehovahs Witnesses believe Glory means

Source: https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200001721
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Re: 2# Is death ... the end?

Post #19

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

Wootah wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 5:07 pm
Psalm 73:23-25
Holman Christian Standard Bible
23 Yet I am always with You;
You hold my right hand.
24 You guide me with Your counsel,
and afterward You will take me up in glory.
25 Who do I have in heaven but You?
And I desire nothing on earth but You.
Psalm 73 is saying that God guides and then afterwards, after they die, they are taken up in glory to God?

Anyone want to disagree and explain how it really means the psalmist is stuck dead in a grave and tell me how glorious that is?
Psalm 73 shows the end of the wicked versus the end of the Righteous/Israel, but also shows the state of them both while alive. The righteous dead at the beginning of the millennium will be raised from the grave to reign with the Christ in "glory" (Revelation 20:4). Apparently, Christ himself, will sit at the right hand of God, in the meantime, waiting for his enemies to be made a footstool. If you want instant glory, go out and join the military and hopefully die in glory.

Psalm 110:1–2 The LORD said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” The LORD shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion.

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Re: 2# Is death ... the end?

Post #20

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
Wootah wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 4:49 pm
tam wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:05 pm
It just says afterward you will take me into glory. It does not say when afterward.

Look at what is said to Daniel:

As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
The interpretations of yourself and JW are like a parent promising their kid the latest toy and then coming home with a knockoff or something far lesser.
I think you are misunderstanding what it is like. I'm not sure what the problem is?
  • For Tam, sure I'll take you to a movie and ice cream, afterwards, and by afterwards I mean 1000s and 1000s of years afterwards. It's how bad parents behave. If parents make a promise they should keep it. Kids know.
Well from the perspective of the person who has died (who is sleeping in death), no time will have passed. A thousand years could pass, but there will be no perception of that happening. It will be like closing your eyes, and when next you open them (when you are awakened), it will be at the resurrection.

The first resurrection happens all at once, for all Christians who have died.

The second resurrection - the resurrection of the dead, both great and small (Rev 20:12, 13)- happens a thousand years later. The second resurrection is for non-Christians.
  • Or for sure when you are dead you are living in God's memory, /sarcastic hooray!
That does not apply to anything I have said, so I will leave it.
The Daniel quote doesn't help your argument either. Rest doesn't mean death either. Don't the Hebrews have a word for death? Why the euphemism from God?

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=hebrew+word+f ... 1-1&ia=web

It's because death isn't the end.
Of course death is not the end. I have not suggested that death is the end.
There has to be a point where you look at all the times God doesn't just say plainly, "Daniel go on your way and when you die at the end you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."
Why? Christ also uses the word 'sleep' when speaking of death.

End times in revelation and the resurrection is judgement day for the bad guys and a new creation is part of that.
The second resurrection (the resurrection of the dead) is for non-Christians. Some here are resurrected to life; some are resurrected to judgment and the second death.

(the first resurrection is for Christians - this occurs when Christ returns)



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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- For Christ (who is the Spirit)

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