2# Is death ... the end?

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2# Is death ... the end?

Post #1

Post by Wootah »

Psalm 73:23-25
Holman Christian Standard Bible
23 Yet I am always with You;
You hold my right hand.
24 You guide me with Your counsel,
and afterward You will take me up in glory.
25 Who do I have in heaven but You?
And I desire nothing on earth but You.
Psalm 73 is saying that God guides and then afterwards, after they die, they are taken up in glory to God?

Anyone want to disagree and explain how it really means the psalmist is stuck dead in a grave and tell me how glorious that is?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: 2# Is death ... the end?

Post #2

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Wootah wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 5:07 pm
Psalm 73:23-25
Holman Christian Standard Bible
23 Yet I am always with You;
You hold my right hand.
24 You guide me with Your counsel,
and afterward You will take me up in glory.
25 Who do I have in heaven but You?
And I desire nothing on earth but You.
Psalm 73 is saying that God guides and then afterwards, after they die, they are taken up in glory to God?

Anyone want to disagree and explain how it really means the psalmist is stuck dead in a grave and tell me how glorious that is?

I disagree because the word die or death is not in the passage. There is no mention of the writer going or being taken to heaven.




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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: 2# Is death ... the end?

Post #3

Post by Wootah »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 3:37 am
Wootah wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 5:07 pm
Psalm 73:23-25
Holman Christian Standard Bible
23 Yet I am always with You;
You hold my right hand.
24 You guide me with Your counsel,
and afterward You will take me up in glory.
25 Who do I have in heaven but You?
And I desire nothing on earth but You.
Psalm 73 is saying that God guides and then afterwards, after they die, they are taken up in glory to God?

Anyone want to disagree and explain how it really means the psalmist is stuck dead in a grave and tell me how glorious that is?
I disagree because the word die or death is not in the passage. There is no mention of the writer going or being taken to heaven.

JW
What is your alternate interpretation?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: 2# Is death ... the end?

Post #4

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Wootah wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 5:45 am What is your alternate interpretation?

PSALM 73

But now I am continually with you;

You have taken hold of my right hand.


The Psalmsist writes about his confidence in God. GOD "takes his hand" meaning God provides him with support and guidance.


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PSALM 73

And afterward you will lead me to glory.+
After (God symbolically takes his hand , not after his life is over) .... he will be lead to "glory" as in, surmount his present trials and personal difficulties.



PSALM 73

25 Whom do I have in the heavens?

And besides you I desire nothing on earth.+

His thoughts and prayers are raised heavenward to God rather than centered on the physical. He is a spiritually minded man concerned primarily with true worship.


PSALM 73

26 My body and my heart may fail,

But God is the rock of my heart and my portion forever

He remains emotionally stable because he focuses on his relationship with his Maker!
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: 2# Is death ... the end?

Post #5

Post by Eloi »

And ... of course NOT; death is not the end. Paul answers precisely that question, here:

1 Cor. 15:12 Now if it is being preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how is it that some among you say there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If, indeed, there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised up. 14 But if Christ has not been raised up, our preaching is certainly in vain, and your faith is also in vain. 15 Moreover, we are also found to be false witnesses of God, because we have given witness against God by saying that he raised up the Christ, whom he did not raise up if the dead are really not to be raised up. 16 For if the dead are not to be raised up, neither has Christ been raised up. 17 Further, if Christ has not been raised up, your faith is useless; you remain in your sins. 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in death in union with Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are to be pitied more than anyone.
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death. 21 For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.

Death is not the end, because God has provided the arrangement of the resurrection.

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Re: 2# Is death ... the end?

Post #6

Post by Wootah »

Eloi wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 9:16 pm And ... of course NOT; death is not the end. Paul answers precisely that question, here:

1 Cor. 15:12 Now if it is being preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how is it that some among you say there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If, indeed, there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised up. 14 But if Christ has not been raised up, our preaching is certainly in vain, and your faith is also in vain. 15 Moreover, we are also found to be false witnesses of God, because we have given witness against God by saying that he raised up the Christ, whom he did not raise up if the dead are really not to be raised up. 16 For if the dead are not to be raised up, neither has Christ been raised up. 17 Further, if Christ has not been raised up, your faith is useless; you remain in your sins. 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in death in union with Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are to be pitied more than anyone.
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death. 21 For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.

Death is not the end, because God has provided the arrangement of the resurrection.
But do you think when you die you cease to be (except in God's mind) until the general resurrection? When you are resurrected will you have a period of time from death until resurrection where you will cease to be?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: 2# Is death ... the end?

Post #7

Post by Eloi »

Eloi wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 9:16 pm And ... of course NOT; death is not the end. Paul answers precisely that question, here:

1 Cor. 15:12 Now if it is being preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how is it that some among you say there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If, indeed, there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised up. 14 But if Christ has not been raised up, our preaching is certainly in vain, and your faith is also in vain. 15 Moreover, we are also found to be false witnesses of God, because we have given witness against God by saying that he raised up the Christ, whom he did not raise up if the dead are really not to be raised up. 16 For if the dead are not to be raised up, neither has Christ been raised up. 17 Further, if Christ has not been raised up, your faith is useless; you remain in your sins. 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in death in union with Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are to be pitied more than anyone.
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death. 21 For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.

Death is not the end, because God has provided the arrangement of the resurrection.
Notice this part again:

17 (...) if Christ has not been raised up, your faith is useless; you remain in your sins. 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in death in union with Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are to be pitied more than anyone.

Paul is saying that if the resurrection did not exist, then even the dead "in Christ" would have perished. Do you know what the verb "to perish" means?

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Re: 2# Is death ... the end?

Post #8

Post by Wootah »

Eloi wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 10:38 pm
Eloi wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 9:16 pm And ... of course NOT; death is not the end. Paul answers precisely that question, here:

1 Cor. 15:12 Now if it is being preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how is it that some among you say there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If, indeed, there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised up. 14 But if Christ has not been raised up, our preaching is certainly in vain, and your faith is also in vain. 15 Moreover, we are also found to be false witnesses of God, because we have given witness against God by saying that he raised up the Christ, whom he did not raise up if the dead are really not to be raised up. 16 For if the dead are not to be raised up, neither has Christ been raised up. 17 Further, if Christ has not been raised up, your faith is useless; you remain in your sins. 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in death in union with Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are to be pitied more than anyone.
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death. 21 For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.

Death is not the end, because God has provided the arrangement of the resurrection.
Notice this part again:

17 (...) if Christ has not been raised up, your faith is useless; you remain in your sins. 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in death in union with Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are to be pitied more than anyone.

Paul is saying that if the resurrection did not exist, then even the dead "in Christ" would have perished. Do you know what the verb "to perish" means?
Well, you made me go the greek. I use bible hub.
https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/15-18.htm

You are claiming the 1 Cor 15:18 says Then also those who have fallen asleep in death in union with Christ have perished.

But Bible Hub claims it says: Then also those having fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

There is no 'in death' in the original text.

Here are a bunch of translations of that verse: https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/1 ... ns%2015:18 the vast majority do not mention death.

I think and I think the early Christians think that in death we sleep.

Check out the etymology of cemetery: https://www.etymonline.com/word/cemetery We call the place we bury people a cemetery as a place of sleep implying the ongoing existing nature of the person.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: 2# Is death ... the end?

Post #9

Post by Eloi »

Well, according Paul that "sleeping" would be "perished" were it not for the subsequent resurrection. That means there IS NO life in between.

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Re: 2# Is death ... the end?

Post #10

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Wootah wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:08 pm
There is no 'in death' in the original text.
The point is that even anointed Christians who "sleep" have perished, redeemed from that state only by a ressurrection. If you need to look up a word it's PERISH because that's what "sleep" is parelled with.

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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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