"...and there was no longer any sea."

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"...and there was no longer any sea."

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Post by theophile »

There are little curiosities peppered throughout the bible that we tend to overlook, so inconspicuously are they placed. But these little curiosities can be like a wrench in the works of our interpretation, even as they can be keys to unlocking the meaning of things. (If we can't explain them, and how they naturally flow from our interpretation, then we should be compelled to reconsider our views until we can, no matter how deep we must go.)

One such curiosity can be found in the book of Revelation, verse 21:1, which is essentially a repetition and play on Genesis 1:1 (i.e., an important passage evoking the beginning at the end).

Genesis 1:1: "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

Revelation 21:1: "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea."

The italicized bit is the curiosity and question for discussion, for why on earth would there no longer be any sea in the new creation? And why is it stated here of all places, tacked on as if in afterthought, to such a grand statement and vision introducing the world to come?

The importance cannot be denied: these two verses buttress the main arc of the bible (they are essentially the beginning and the end). Yet the meaning is... elusive. Almost like the waters of the sea itself if you try to grab hold.

So any thoughts on the matter? Some additional questions to help round out the discussion:
  • Why was the sea formed in the first place?
  • What is the sea representative of?
  • Is there a deeper origin to all this that we need to explore?

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Re: "...and there was no longer any sea."

Post #31

Post by theophile »

Miles wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 2:27 pm
theophile wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 9:48 am
Miles wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:18 pm
theophile wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:46 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:33 pm
theophile wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 8:55 am
Miles wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:15 am
Why was the sea formed in the first place?
Happenstance. Asteroids colliding with the young planet are most likely the primary source of water on Earth, with the water eventually collecting in Earth's enormous basins.
Sure, but this is the Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma board. Not science class. :)
Needs and wishes vs science.

Miles wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:15 am
Revelation 21:1 "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea."

. . . . why on earth would there no longer be any sea in the new creation?
The land was needed for farming and tractor pulls. But what interests me is, what happened to the first heaven? That supernatural place where beings such as gods, angels, saints, and the souls of good Christians are said to reside. Could god have actually lost his throne and all the clouds it sat on? Then, of course, there's the question of what happened to the first Earth? Did the planet just go ka-blooie? . . . . . . . However, considering that Revelations 1:1 says

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"
and the "must shortly come to pass" would have already come to pass by now, I think it can all be put back on the shelf and forgotten about.
I think 'heaven' (per Genesis 1) should be understood as the sky and space above. The sun, moon, and stars included. It is everything contained within the bounds of the firmament, which holds back the deep / waters outside.
Yeah, so just what constitutes a firmament? And what is "the deep / waters outside"? And where is this "outside"?

In terms of the timing of it all, well, what is 1000 (or even 10,000) years to God? Nothing wrong with creating a little urgency in folks to try and get the ball rolling.
Like lying to them. Gotcha. But to what end?


.
Most of this feels more appropriate for the apologetics board. The only relevant question I see is "what is 'the deep / waters outside'? And where is this 'outside'?"
Hey, you're the one who brought up the firmament. So why is asking about it irrelevant?

Per previous post, I reckon the deep is an abyssal space. And the waters are representative of the fluid (/chaotic) matter that occupies it. It's what sets the scene for Genesis 1. (See Genesis 1:2 for example, where God's spirit is hovering over the waters of the deep, which is the point at which the creation of the heavens and earth began, i.e., "Let there be light", etc., etc...). It's essentially a cosmic sea.
Like this?

........................... Image

.
The firmament is borderline relevant. Quite literally in fact, since like I said before it is the borderline between creation and the great deep that surrounds it. It's what holds the waters back and prevents them from washing away creation.

So yes, exactly like the image you posted.
So these waters that are being held back exist where? Beyond the bounds of our universe, currently calculated to be 46.5 billion light-years away, which would encompass a sphere of galaxies 93 billion light-years in diameter? C'mon. Even this is too fantastical to swallow.


.
I used our physical universe as an analogy. I don't actually think that the diagram you posted is an accurate depiction of the cosmos, or that there are literally waters being held back at the bounds of the universe by the firmament. (Again, we're on the theology board here. It's more about what the bible says, not whether it lines up with the facts.)

But hey, if you want to relate Genesis 1 to the universe we know I would suggest looking at it this way:

What Genesis 1 assumes at the moment of God's creation (which is not necessarily the creation of the universe) is a cosmic ocean of fluid matter (the deep). That's not ridiculous, even by scientific standards. It's actually a fair representation at a high level for any moment post the big bang of what the universe is (and God knows for any moment before).

God's creation (i.e., the heavens with the earth at its center) is something that emerges within this cosmic ocean. It is literally the space that God orders to support life.

Now, do I actually think that some God-being created the heavens and the earth in the way that Genesis 1 describes? Of course not. But that is not really the point. Genesis 1 is a story, not science. The point, if we follow the story and the mandate it gives us to its logical conclusion, is to continue God's work and expand the life-supporting / life-filled 'creation' we know (no matter how it got here) to the ends of the earth and ultimately the bounds (if they exist) of the universe (/deep).

That last bit obviously has no relationship whatsoever to science. It's more ethics and calling, should we choose to listen.

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Re: "...and there was no longer any sea."

Post #32

Post by Miles »

theophile wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 8:21 pm
Miles wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 2:27 pm
theophile wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 9:48 am
Miles wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:18 pm
theophile wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:46 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:33 pm
theophile wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 8:55 am
Miles wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:15 am
Why was the sea formed in the first place?
Happenstance. Asteroids colliding with the young planet are most likely the primary source of water on Earth, with the water eventually collecting in Earth's enormous basins.
Sure, but this is the Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma board. Not science class. :)
Needs and wishes vs science.

Miles wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:15 am
Revelation 21:1 "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea."

. . . . why on earth would there no longer be any sea in the new creation?
The land was needed for farming and tractor pulls. But what interests me is, what happened to the first heaven? That supernatural place where beings such as gods, angels, saints, and the souls of good Christians are said to reside. Could god have actually lost his throne and all the clouds it sat on? Then, of course, there's the question of what happened to the first Earth? Did the planet just go ka-blooie? . . . . . . . However, considering that Revelations 1:1 says

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"
and the "must shortly come to pass" would have already come to pass by now, I think it can all be put back on the shelf and forgotten about.
I think 'heaven' (per Genesis 1) should be understood as the sky and space above. The sun, moon, and stars included. It is everything contained within the bounds of the firmament, which holds back the deep / waters outside.
Yeah, so just what constitutes a firmament? And what is "the deep / waters outside"? And where is this "outside"?

In terms of the timing of it all, well, what is 1000 (or even 10,000) years to God? Nothing wrong with creating a little urgency in folks to try and get the ball rolling.
Like lying to them. Gotcha. But to what end?


.
Most of this feels more appropriate for the apologetics board. The only relevant question I see is "what is 'the deep / waters outside'? And where is this 'outside'?"
Hey, you're the one who brought up the firmament. So why is asking about it irrelevant?

Per previous post, I reckon the deep is an abyssal space. And the waters are representative of the fluid (/chaotic) matter that occupies it. It's what sets the scene for Genesis 1. (See Genesis 1:2 for example, where God's spirit is hovering over the waters of the deep, which is the point at which the creation of the heavens and earth began, i.e., "Let there be light", etc., etc...). It's essentially a cosmic sea.
Like this?

........................... Image

.
The firmament is borderline relevant. Quite literally in fact, since like I said before it is the borderline between creation and the great deep that surrounds it. It's what holds the waters back and prevents them from washing away creation.

So yes, exactly like the image you posted.
So these waters that are being held back exist where? Beyond the bounds of our universe, currently calculated to be 46.5 billion light-years away, which would encompass a sphere of galaxies 93 billion light-years in diameter? C'mon. Even this is too fantastical to swallow.
I used our physical universe as an analogy.

I don't actually think that the diagram you posted is an accurate depiction of the cosmos, or that there are literally waters being held back at the bounds of the universe by the firmament. (Again, we're on the theology board here. It's more about what the bible says, not whether it lines up with the facts.)
So the firmament isn't "exactly like the image you posted" after all. Hmmm. What to believe! *sigh* . . . . . What... to... believe. :(


.

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Re: "...and there was no longer any sea."

Post #33

Post by theophile »

Miles wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 1:32 am
theophile wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 8:21 pm
Miles wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 2:27 pm
theophile wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 9:48 am
Miles wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:18 pm
theophile wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:46 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:33 pm
theophile wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 8:55 am
Miles wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:15 am
Why was the sea formed in the first place?
Happenstance. Asteroids colliding with the young planet are most likely the primary source of water on Earth, with the water eventually collecting in Earth's enormous basins.
Sure, but this is the Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma board. Not science class. :)
Needs and wishes vs science.

Miles wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:15 am
Revelation 21:1 "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea."

. . . . why on earth would there no longer be any sea in the new creation?
The land was needed for farming and tractor pulls. But what interests me is, what happened to the first heaven? That supernatural place where beings such as gods, angels, saints, and the souls of good Christians are said to reside. Could god have actually lost his throne and all the clouds it sat on? Then, of course, there's the question of what happened to the first Earth? Did the planet just go ka-blooie? . . . . . . . However, considering that Revelations 1:1 says

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"
and the "must shortly come to pass" would have already come to pass by now, I think it can all be put back on the shelf and forgotten about.
I think 'heaven' (per Genesis 1) should be understood as the sky and space above. The sun, moon, and stars included. It is everything contained within the bounds of the firmament, which holds back the deep / waters outside.
Yeah, so just what constitutes a firmament? And what is "the deep / waters outside"? And where is this "outside"?

In terms of the timing of it all, well, what is 1000 (or even 10,000) years to God? Nothing wrong with creating a little urgency in folks to try and get the ball rolling.
Like lying to them. Gotcha. But to what end?


.
Most of this feels more appropriate for the apologetics board. The only relevant question I see is "what is 'the deep / waters outside'? And where is this 'outside'?"
Hey, you're the one who brought up the firmament. So why is asking about it irrelevant?

Per previous post, I reckon the deep is an abyssal space. And the waters are representative of the fluid (/chaotic) matter that occupies it. It's what sets the scene for Genesis 1. (See Genesis 1:2 for example, where God's spirit is hovering over the waters of the deep, which is the point at which the creation of the heavens and earth began, i.e., "Let there be light", etc., etc...). It's essentially a cosmic sea.
Like this?

........................... Image

.
The firmament is borderline relevant. Quite literally in fact, since like I said before it is the borderline between creation and the great deep that surrounds it. It's what holds the waters back and prevents them from washing away creation.

So yes, exactly like the image you posted.
So these waters that are being held back exist where? Beyond the bounds of our universe, currently calculated to be 46.5 billion light-years away, which would encompass a sphere of galaxies 93 billion light-years in diameter? C'mon. Even this is too fantastical to swallow.
I used our physical universe as an analogy.

I don't actually think that the diagram you posted is an accurate depiction of the cosmos, or that there are literally waters being held back at the bounds of the universe by the firmament. (Again, we're on the theology board here. It's more about what the bible says, not whether it lines up with the facts.)
So the firmament isn't "exactly like the image you posted" after all. Hmmm. What to believe! *sigh* . . . . . What... to... believe. :(


.
Maybe you misread what I said or I wasn't clear. I know I have a habit of drawing subtle differences and using too many words sometimes which can get confusing. :)

The diagram is accurate (minus the extra bits I mentioned) to the cosmology presented in Genesis 1. Firmament included. But it is not an accurate depiction of the universe (nor is it meant to be).

The heavens and the earth that God creates in Genesis 1 is not the physical universe (by which I mean the sum total of all that exists). It is contained within it.

The heavens and the earth that God creates + the deep = the sum total of all that exists (at least in a substantial, material sense).

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Re: "...and there was no longer any sea."

Post #34

Post by Miles »

theophile wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 8:19 am
Miles wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 1:32 am
theophile wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 8:21 pm
Miles wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 2:27 pm
theophile wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 9:48 am
Miles wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:18 pm
theophile wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:46 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:33 pm
theophile wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 8:55 am
Miles wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:15 am
Happenstance. Asteroids colliding with the young planet are most likely the primary source of water on Earth, with the water eventually collecting in Earth's enormous basins.
Sure, but this is the Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma board. Not science class. :)
Needs and wishes vs science.

Miles wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:15 am
The land was needed for farming and tractor pulls. But what interests me is, what happened to the first heaven? That supernatural place where beings such as gods, angels, saints, and the souls of good Christians are said to reside. Could god have actually lost his throne and all the clouds it sat on? Then, of course, there's the question of what happened to the first Earth? Did the planet just go ka-blooie? . . . . . . . However, considering that Revelations 1:1 says

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"
and the "must shortly come to pass" would have already come to pass by now, I think it can all be put back on the shelf and forgotten about.
I think 'heaven' (per Genesis 1) should be understood as the sky and space above. The sun, moon, and stars included. It is everything contained within the bounds of the firmament, which holds back the deep / waters outside.
Yeah, so just what constitutes a firmament? And what is "the deep / waters outside"? And where is this "outside"?

In terms of the timing of it all, well, what is 1000 (or even 10,000) years to God? Nothing wrong with creating a little urgency in folks to try and get the ball rolling.
Like lying to them. Gotcha. But to what end?


.
Most of this feels more appropriate for the apologetics board. The only relevant question I see is "what is 'the deep / waters outside'? And where is this 'outside'?"
Hey, you're the one who brought up the firmament. So why is asking about it irrelevant?

Per previous post, I reckon the deep is an abyssal space. And the waters are representative of the fluid (/chaotic) matter that occupies it. It's what sets the scene for Genesis 1. (See Genesis 1:2 for example, where God's spirit is hovering over the waters of the deep, which is the point at which the creation of the heavens and earth began, i.e., "Let there be light", etc., etc...). It's essentially a cosmic sea.
Like this?

........................... Image

.
The firmament is borderline relevant. Quite literally in fact, since like I said before it is the borderline between creation and the great deep that surrounds it. It's what holds the waters back and prevents them from washing away creation.

So yes, exactly like the image you posted.
So these waters that are being held back exist where? Beyond the bounds of our universe, currently calculated to be 46.5 billion light-years away, which would encompass a sphere of galaxies 93 billion light-years in diameter? C'mon. Even this is too fantastical to swallow.
I used our physical universe as an analogy.

I don't actually think that the diagram you posted is an accurate depiction of the cosmos, or that there are literally waters being held back at the bounds of the universe by the firmament. (Again, we're on the theology board here. It's more about what the bible says, not whether it lines up with the facts.)
So the firmament isn't "exactly like the image you posted" after all. Hmmm. What to believe! *sigh* . . . . . What... to... believe. :(


.
Maybe you misread what I said or I wasn't clear. I know I have a habit of drawing subtle differences and using too many words sometimes which can get confusing. :)

The diagram is accurate (minus the extra bits I mentioned) to the cosmology presented in Genesis 1. Firmament included. But it is not an accurate depiction of the universe (nor is it meant to be).

The heavens and the earth that God creates in Genesis 1 is not the physical universe (by which I mean the sum total of all that exists). It is contained within it.

The heavens and the earth that God creates + the deep = the sum total of all that exists (at least in a substantial, material sense).
So let me get this straight. The heavens and earth are within the physical universe, and the deep is the water outside the heavens and earth that also surrounds what, all the stars, other planets, black holes, galaxies and so forth?


.

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Re: "...and there was no longer any sea."

Post #35

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

theophile wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 9:40 am There are little curiosities peppered throughout the bible that we tend to overlook, so inconspicuously are they placed. But these little curiosities can be like a wrench in the works of our interpretation, even as they can be keys to unlocking the meaning of things. (If we can't explain them, and how they naturally flow from our interpretation, then we should be compelled to reconsider our views until we can, no matter how deep we must go.)

One such curiosity can be found in the book of Revelation, verse 21:1, which is essentially a repetition and play on Genesis 1:1 (i.e., an important passage evoking the beginning at the end).

Genesis 1:1: "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

Revelation 21:1: "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea."

The italicized bit is the curiosity and question for discussion, for why on earth would there no longer be any sea in the new creation? And why is it stated here of all places, tacked on as if in afterthought, to such a grand statement and vision introducing the world to come?

The importance cannot be denied: these two verses buttress the main arc of the bible (they are essentially the beginning and the end). Yet the meaning is... elusive. Almost like the waters of the sea itself if you try to grab hold.

So any thoughts on the matter? Some additional questions to help round out the discussion:
  • Why was the sea formed in the first place?
  • What is the sea representative of?
  • Is there a deeper origin to all this that we need to explore?
There being no sea would be a marker. If there is still a "sea", then indeed, we are not under the realm of a new heaven and earth, which some claim.

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Re: "...and there was no longer any sea."

Post #36

Post by theophile »

Miles wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 2:29 pm
theophile wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 8:19 am
Miles wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 1:32 am
theophile wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 8:21 pm
Miles wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 2:27 pm
theophile wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 9:48 am
Miles wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:18 pm
theophile wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:46 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:33 pm
theophile wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 8:55 am

Sure, but this is the Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma board. Not science class. :)
Needs and wishes vs science.


I think 'heaven' (per Genesis 1) should be understood as the sky and space above. The sun, moon, and stars included. It is everything contained within the bounds of the firmament, which holds back the deep / waters outside.
Yeah, so just what constitutes a firmament? And what is "the deep / waters outside"? And where is this "outside"?

In terms of the timing of it all, well, what is 1000 (or even 10,000) years to God? Nothing wrong with creating a little urgency in folks to try and get the ball rolling.
Like lying to them. Gotcha. But to what end?


.
Most of this feels more appropriate for the apologetics board. The only relevant question I see is "what is 'the deep / waters outside'? And where is this 'outside'?"
Hey, you're the one who brought up the firmament. So why is asking about it irrelevant?

Per previous post, I reckon the deep is an abyssal space. And the waters are representative of the fluid (/chaotic) matter that occupies it. It's what sets the scene for Genesis 1. (See Genesis 1:2 for example, where God's spirit is hovering over the waters of the deep, which is the point at which the creation of the heavens and earth began, i.e., "Let there be light", etc., etc...). It's essentially a cosmic sea.
Like this?

........................... Image

.
The firmament is borderline relevant. Quite literally in fact, since like I said before it is the borderline between creation and the great deep that surrounds it. It's what holds the waters back and prevents them from washing away creation.

So yes, exactly like the image you posted.
So these waters that are being held back exist where? Beyond the bounds of our universe, currently calculated to be 46.5 billion light-years away, which would encompass a sphere of galaxies 93 billion light-years in diameter? C'mon. Even this is too fantastical to swallow.
I used our physical universe as an analogy.

I don't actually think that the diagram you posted is an accurate depiction of the cosmos, or that there are literally waters being held back at the bounds of the universe by the firmament. (Again, we're on the theology board here. It's more about what the bible says, not whether it lines up with the facts.)
So the firmament isn't "exactly like the image you posted" after all. Hmmm. What to believe! *sigh* . . . . . What... to... believe. :(


.
Maybe you misread what I said or I wasn't clear. I know I have a habit of drawing subtle differences and using too many words sometimes which can get confusing. :)

The diagram is accurate (minus the extra bits I mentioned) to the cosmology presented in Genesis 1. Firmament included. But it is not an accurate depiction of the universe (nor is it meant to be).

The heavens and the earth that God creates in Genesis 1 is not the physical universe (by which I mean the sum total of all that exists). It is contained within it.

The heavens and the earth that God creates + the deep = the sum total of all that exists (at least in a substantial, material sense).
So let me get this straight. The heavens and earth are within the physical universe, and the deep is the water outside the heavens and earth that also surrounds what, all the stars, other planets, black holes, galaxies and so forth?

.
I'd make minor adjustments to that.

The best way to line up the cosmology of Gen 1 to the physical universe we know (if we wanted to do such a thing) is to treat the heavens and the earth (God's creation) as a place within the physical universe that is ordered by God to support life. The earth at its center, the sun and moon circling above it, and some stars.

Everything else surrounding that - anything outside the bounds of this finite creation - would be considered 'the deep', which is to say an abyssal space filled with fluid matter (or what Gen 1 calls water). In that fluid matter I would include all that you say here (other galaxies, black holes, etc.)

The whole idea (or goal of history if you want to look at it that way) being to expand that life-filled creation out into the deep until every inch of it is in the service of God (and there is no longer any sea).

That is the point, as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15, that God will at last be all in all, and even death itself will be conquered.

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Re: "...and there was no longer any sea."

Post #37

Post by onewithhim »

Mattman wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:15 pm The Bible Project has a lot of useful information.

The short answer is that it's got nothing to do with water. The sea was seen as chaos or a lack of order. The book of Genesis opens with God bringing the world out of the sea (bringing order out of disorder). When mankind runs rampant in his sin, we see the sea overtaking human civilization (the story of Noah). That is to say, unchecked sin leads to chaos and the loss of order.

In the new creation, there will be no more chaos, no more sea.
Interesting analysis. Very good reasoning, and I agree, plus the thought that the sea involves people, the unrest and violence of the common people. This seems logical by way of Revelation 17:15 where John says that the angel said: "The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is sitting, mean people and crowds and nations and tongues."

I think that aligns itself with what you are saying about chaos. And yes, how wonderful it will be, when the earth is cleared of pollution and evil people, to have a world without chaos.

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