"...and there was no longer any sea."

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theophile
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"...and there was no longer any sea."

Post #1

Post by theophile »

There are little curiosities peppered throughout the bible that we tend to overlook, so inconspicuously are they placed. But these little curiosities can be like a wrench in the works of our interpretation, even as they can be keys to unlocking the meaning of things. (If we can't explain them, and how they naturally flow from our interpretation, then we should be compelled to reconsider our views until we can, no matter how deep we must go.)

One such curiosity can be found in the book of Revelation, verse 21:1, which is essentially a repetition and play on Genesis 1:1 (i.e., an important passage evoking the beginning at the end).

Genesis 1:1: "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

Revelation 21:1: "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea."

The italicized bit is the curiosity and question for discussion, for why on earth would there no longer be any sea in the new creation? And why is it stated here of all places, tacked on as if in afterthought, to such a grand statement and vision introducing the world to come?

The importance cannot be denied: these two verses buttress the main arc of the bible (they are essentially the beginning and the end). Yet the meaning is... elusive. Almost like the waters of the sea itself if you try to grab hold.

So any thoughts on the matter? Some additional questions to help round out the discussion:
  • Why was the sea formed in the first place?
  • What is the sea representative of?
  • Is there a deeper origin to all this that we need to explore?

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Re: "...and there was no longer any sea."

Post #2

Post by Mattman »

The Bible Project has a lot of useful information.

The short answer is that it's got nothing to do with water. The sea was seen as chaos or a lack of order. The book of Genesis opens with God bringing the world out of the sea (bringing order out of disorder). When mankind runs rampant in his sin, we see the sea overtaking human civilization (the story of Noah). That is to say, unchecked sin leads to chaos and the loss of order.

In the new creation, there will be no more chaos, no more sea.

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Re: "...and there was no longer any sea."

Post #3

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Image


In Revelation 21 the sea/wave are SYMBOLIC
  • SEA: Represents the turbulant masses of mankind (restless, unsettled, rebellious given to unrest and revolution).
  • WAVES: Represent politically motivated struggles

REVELATION 17:15

"The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is sitting, mean people and crowds and nations and tongues."


This is not to be confused with the literal sea/oceans mentioned in Genesis 1.


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Re: "...and there was no longer any sea."

Post #4

Post by Miles »

Why was the sea formed in the first place?
Happenstance. Asteroids colliding with the young planet are most likely the primary source of water on Earth, with the water eventually collecting in Earth's enormous basins.

What is the sea representative of?
Whatever one chooses, or needs it to be, I suppose.

Is there a deeper origin to all this that we need to explore?
Well, science continues to follow the mysteries of nature wherever they lead it, so who knows. Of course, if one takes the sea as some kind of metaphor then its origin would lie within the fertile imagination of the metaphor's creator.

Revelation 21:1 "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea."

. . . . why on earth would there no longer be any sea in the new creation?
The land was needed for farming and tractor pulls. But what interests me is, what happened to the first heaven? That supernatural place where beings such as gods, angels, saints, and the souls of good Christians are said to reside. Could god have actually lost his throne and all the clouds it sat on? Then, of course, there's the question of what happened to the first Earth? Did the planet just go ka-blooie? . . . . . . . However, considering that Revelations 1:1 says

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"

and the "must shortly come to pass" would have already come to pass by now, I think it can all be put back on the shelf and forgotten about.


.

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Re: "...and there was no longer any sea."

Post #5

Post by theophile »

Mattman wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:15 pm The Bible Project has a lot of useful information.

The short answer is that it's got nothing to do with water. The sea was seen as chaos or a lack of order. The book of Genesis opens with God bringing the world out of the sea (bringing order out of disorder). When mankind runs rampant in his sin, we see the sea overtaking human civilization (the story of Noah). That is to say, unchecked sin leads to chaos and the loss of order.

In the new creation, there will be no more chaos, no more sea.
[Replying to Mattman in post #2]

Just a few questions / comments...

Are you saying that in the beginning, when all was chaotic sea (and there was no heaven and earth yet created), that sin was running rampant? If so, who was sinning in this primordial state, leading to all of the primordial chaos? Or does the primordial chaos have another source?

Furthermore, are you suggesting a negative moral valuation of the primordial sea by connecting it to sin in this way? Your post suggests to me that you think the sea / chaos is evil, and something to be done away with... But I find this a bit troubling. For example...

If there is no more disorder/chaos left in the end times, will the creation of anything new even be possible? i.e., isn't the new creation of Revelation 21:1 itself a highly disordering event? Something that disrupts the current order of the world with something new?

It strikes me that disorder/chaos is a precondition for the creation of anything new, and is also what creation itself leads to... So when you say there will be no more chaos / disorder, what I hear is that there will be no more creation / anything new, which will be a sad state of affairs. Akin to Nietzsche's 'last man' if you're aware of the concept.

Finally, what order is brought to all of the chaos? Natural laws, for example, have arguably always ordered the cosmos (the movements of 'the sea' included).

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Re: "...and there was no longer any sea."

Post #6

Post by Mattman »

[Replying to theophile in post #5]
Are you saying that in the beginning, when all was chaotic sea (and there was no heaven and earth yet created), that sin was running rampant?
No, rather that it was a state of complete disorder. The story of Noah then tells us that unchecked sin returns to a state of disorder.
Furthermore, are you suggesting a negative moral valuation of the primordial sea by connecting it to sin in this way?
No, disorder isn't immoral.
It strikes me that disorder/chaos is a precondition for the creation of anything new
I'm not sure why that would be the case. It seems to me that you can create something new out of pre-existing materials. This seems to be exactly what is predicted in Christian eschatology: God's ordering of the universe under his reign.
Finally, what order is brought to all of the chaos? Natural laws, for example, have arguably always ordered the cosmos (the movements of 'the sea' included).
The sea is a metaphor for disorder. The order that is brought out of chaos is the creation. God orders the universe according to light and dark, land and water, day and night, and so on.

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Re: "...and there was no longer any sea."

Post #7

Post by theophile »

Miles wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:15 am
Why was the sea formed in the first place?
Happenstance. Asteroids colliding with the young planet are most likely the primary source of water on Earth, with the water eventually collecting in Earth's enormous basins.
Sure, but this is the Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma board. Not science class. :)
Miles wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:15 am
Revelation 21:1 "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea."

. . . . why on earth would there no longer be any sea in the new creation?
The land was needed for farming and tractor pulls. But what interests me is, what happened to the first heaven? That supernatural place where beings such as gods, angels, saints, and the souls of good Christians are said to reside. Could god have actually lost his throne and all the clouds it sat on? Then, of course, there's the question of what happened to the first Earth? Did the planet just go ka-blooie? . . . . . . . However, considering that Revelations 1:1 says

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"
and the "must shortly come to pass" would have already come to pass by now, I think it can all be put back on the shelf and forgotten about.
I think 'heaven' (per Genesis 1) should be understood as the sky and space above. The sun, moon, and stars included. It is everything contained within the bounds of the firmament, which holds back the deep / waters outside.

As to what it means for the first heaven and earth to 'pass away', the author was clearly bringing something like death and resurrection to mind in this passage. The 'same' heaven and earth come back just as the same you will come back once resurrected. But at the same time you would be made new. So there is both continuity and discontinuity. (Not a 'big ka-blooie'.)

In terms of what is different, well, one obvious point is that there is no longer any sea. :)

In terms of the timing of it all, well, what is 1000 (or even 10,000) years to God? Nothing wrong with creating a little urgency in folks to try and get the ball rolling.

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Re: "...and there was no longer any sea."

Post #8

Post by theophile »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:05 am Image


In Revelation 21 the sea/wave are SYMBOLIC
  • SEA: Represents the turbulant masses of mankind (restless, unsettled, rebellious given to unrest and revolution).
  • WAVES: Represent politically motivated struggles

This is nit to'the confused with the literal sea/océans mentioned in Genesis 1.
The sea certainly is symbolic. But what makes you think it is disconnected from the sea of Genesis 1? And to say that it has the symbolism you suggest here?

Per Genesis 1, and our mandate to fill the earth and subdue it, I do think you are on to something. The sea is something that needs to be subdued, just as Jesus calms the sea at multiple points in the gospels. But I hesitate to say that it is (just) mankind that is subdued verses everything else that is out there...

But even so, is the sea no longer the sea just because it is subdued? Such that the author could rightly say "there was no longer any sea"? The answer may very well be yes. Revelation 21 gives us a hint, I think, when it speaks of the "spring of the water of life." (21:6) The subdual of the sea seemingly effects a transformation of the sea into something else...

Last, what 'waves' are you referring to in Revelation 21? I'm assuming that's not an explicit biblical term but curious to know if it is.

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Re: "...and there was no longer any sea."

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Post by nobspeople »

theophile wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 9:40 am There are little curiosities peppered throughout the bible that we tend to overlook, so inconspicuously are they placed. But these little curiosities can be like a wrench in the works of our interpretation, even as they can be keys to unlocking the meaning of things. (If we can't explain them, and how they naturally flow from our interpretation, then we should be compelled to reconsider our views until we can, no matter how deep we must go.)

One such curiosity can be found in the book of Revelation, verse 21:1, which is essentially a repetition and play on Genesis 1:1 (i.e., an important passage evoking the beginning at the end).

Genesis 1:1: "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

Revelation 21:1: "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea."

The italicized bit is the curiosity and question for discussion, for why on earth would there no longer be any sea in the new creation? And why is it stated here of all places, tacked on as if in afterthought, to such a grand statement and vision introducing the world to come?

The importance cannot be denied: these two verses buttress the main arc of the bible (they are essentially the beginning and the end). Yet the meaning is... elusive. Almost like the waters of the sea itself if you try to grab hold.

So any thoughts on the matter? Some additional questions to help round out the discussion:
  • Why was the sea formed in the first place?
  • What is the sea representative of?
  • Is there a deeper origin to all this that we need to explore?
No more sea means god can't drown anyone when he gets his panties in a bunch. It's a win-win for everyone but him!
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: "...and there was no longer any sea."

Post #10

Post by otseng »

nobspeople wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 9:20 am No more sea means god can't drown anyone when he gets his panties in a bunch. It's a win-win for everyone but him!
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