"...and there was no longer any sea."

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theophile
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"...and there was no longer any sea."

Post #1

Post by theophile »

There are little curiosities peppered throughout the bible that we tend to overlook, so inconspicuously are they placed. But these little curiosities can be like a wrench in the works of our interpretation, even as they can be keys to unlocking the meaning of things. (If we can't explain them, and how they naturally flow from our interpretation, then we should be compelled to reconsider our views until we can, no matter how deep we must go.)

One such curiosity can be found in the book of Revelation, verse 21:1, which is essentially a repetition and play on Genesis 1:1 (i.e., an important passage evoking the beginning at the end).

Genesis 1:1: "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

Revelation 21:1: "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea."

The italicized bit is the curiosity and question for discussion, for why on earth would there no longer be any sea in the new creation? And why is it stated here of all places, tacked on as if in afterthought, to such a grand statement and vision introducing the world to come?

The importance cannot be denied: these two verses buttress the main arc of the bible (they are essentially the beginning and the end). Yet the meaning is... elusive. Almost like the waters of the sea itself if you try to grab hold.

So any thoughts on the matter? Some additional questions to help round out the discussion:
  • Why was the sea formed in the first place?
  • What is the sea representative of?
  • Is there a deeper origin to all this that we need to explore?

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Re: "...and there was no longer any sea."

Post #11

Post by JehovahsWitness »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:05 amThis [revelation's "sea"] is not to be confused with the literal sea/oceans mentioned in Genesis 1.
theophile wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 9:08 amBut what makes you think it is disconnected from the sea of Genesis 1?

IS GENESIS 1 SIMPLE ALLERORY OR SYMBOLISM?

No. The seas (waters) of Genesis 1 verse 2 eventually became home for "sea creatures" (v21). And the earth which was divided from it, became home for wild and domestic animals and eventually man himself (v26). All of which were created by God (YHWH). We note also that the sea/waters and everything in it was declared "good" so the waters of Genesis cannot be symbolic of the wicked as is the case with the metaphor elsewhere in scripture (compare Isaiah 57:20).

If we are going to have symbolic sea/waters, that means the land would also be symbolic as would the humans and the animals.
Does the bible describe the creation of "a symbolic planet" inhabited with "symbolic humans" and "symbolic animals" while failing to explain how literal humans came into existence?

GENESIS 1:26

Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.”


If its a symbolic man, sea and fish .... is it a symbolic God?
CONCLUSION: There seems little doubt that Genesis chapter 1 and 2 are describing the preparation and population of our literal planet earth, while Revelation is presenting metaphor.











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RELATED POSTS
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viewtopic.php?p=1066494#p1066494


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Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:41 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: "...and there was no longer any sea."

Post #12

Post by nobspeople »

As a response to a legitimate point:
Mocking as it may be, there's truth in it:
God seems to drown people based on biblical history, as well as let a fish eat a guy, which includes the sea/water as well.
If there's no sea/water, there's no way to drown anyone or fish to eat anyone.
This points to a god that does some horrendous things by human standards (which is the only standard humans have to go on).
Perhaps the 'panties in a bunch' was the issue, but it does appear that god gets angry for no good reason (an all knowing thing can't be mad as it knows 'what's coming when') many times, when god has every ability to keep things from getting out of hand and thus, wouldn't get angry.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: "...and there was no longer any sea."

Post #13

Post by theophile »

Mattman wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:58 pm [Replying to theophile in post #5]
Are you saying that in the beginning, when all was chaotic sea (and there was no heaven and earth yet created), that sin was running rampant?
No, rather that it was a state of complete disorder. The story of Noah then tells us that unchecked sin returns to a state of disorder.
Furthermore, are you suggesting a negative moral valuation of the primordial sea by connecting it to sin in this way?
No, disorder isn't immoral.
So disorder in itself isn't immoral (or evil), yet it is the result of sin and is what God seemingly works against (as evidenced by God's ordering the cosmos). Even as God uses disorder (/the sea) as a tool to reset the clock, so to speak, per Noah, or Babel even, for another OT example where God explicitly sows disorder to achieve God's ends.

Okay, I can buy that. But if I hear you correctly, the relationship between sin and disorder is not causal but repercussive. Sin doesn't directly lead to a state of disorder ('disorder' was not the state of things before God opened the flood gates on Noah) but rather disorder is what God uses (at times) to correct a sinful state. Fair representation?

What 'state' does sin directly cause then if not a state of disorder?
Are we to envision God's action over history being twofold? Both bringing order to the disorder, and eliminating sin and whatever state sin causes? (Sometimes using disorder, per Noah, as a tool to do so?)

Is the latter (sin) still a problem at the point of Revelation 21:1, since only 'the sea' (/disorder) no longer exists?...
Mattman wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:58 pm
It strikes me that disorder/chaos is a precondition for the creation of anything new
I'm not sure why that would be the case. It seems to me that you can create something new out of pre-existing materials. This seems to be exactly what is predicted in Christian eschatology: God's ordering of the universe under his reign.
To use a modern example, I'm thinking something like the iPhone. That invention (/the creation of something new) was born out of dissatisfaction with the status quo. It has an origin in disorder, and furthermore causes disorder when brought to market. (Just think of all the other phone makers, computer makers, etc., that it disrupted and sent into disarray, just like God did Babel...)

Hence if there comes a time when there is no more disorder, that suggests to me that there is no longer the possibility of anything new. No more creation. Maybe that's the point, but I feel that's wrong.
Mattman wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:58 pm
Finally, what order is brought to all of the chaos? Natural laws, for example, have arguably always ordered the cosmos (the movements of 'the sea' included).
The sea is a metaphor for disorder. The order that is brought out of chaos is the creation. God orders the universe according to light and dark, land and water, day and night, and so on.
Partial answer... Is there an order that brings order (/makes sense of) all of these discrete actions you mention? i.e., what is God really trying to achieve here when all is said and done?

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Re: "...and there was no longer any sea."

Post #14

Post by Mattman »

[Replying to theophile in post #13]

I think you're pressing a metaphor for precision on a topic it isn't trying to discuss and for real-world applications it does not intend. I don't think John wants us to think that God is averse to water and so is withholding a sea from the new creation. I think John wants to say that the destructive (or perhaps deconstructive) effects of sin will be done away with in the new kingdom. I don't see how more is intended than that when he uses the symbol of the sea.

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Re: "...and there was no longer any sea."

Post #15

Post by theophile »

nobspeople wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:45 am As a response to a legitimate point:
Mocking as it may be, there's truth in it:
God seems to drown people based on biblical history, as well as let a fish eat a guy, which includes the sea/water as well.
If there's no sea/water, there's no way to drown anyone or fish to eat anyone.
This points to a god that does some horrendous things by human standards (which is the only standard humans have to go on).
Perhaps the 'panties in a bunch' was the issue, but it does appear that god gets angry for no good reason (an all knowing thing can't be mad as it knows 'what's coming when') many times, when god has every ability to keep things from getting out of hand and thus, wouldn't get angry.
This is not answering why there is no longer any sea in the new creation. It is raising an implication of there being no sea (which is fine), but says nothing as to why.

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Re: "...and there was no longer any sea."

Post #16

Post by nobspeople »

theophile wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:49 pm
nobspeople wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:45 am As a response to a legitimate point:
Mocking as it may be, there's truth in it:
God seems to drown people based on biblical history, as well as let a fish eat a guy, which includes the sea/water as well.
If there's no sea/water, there's no way to drown anyone or fish to eat anyone.
This points to a god that does some horrendous things by human standards (which is the only standard humans have to go on).
Perhaps the 'panties in a bunch' was the issue, but it does appear that god gets angry for no good reason (an all knowing thing can't be mad as it knows 'what's coming when') many times, when god has every ability to keep things from getting out of hand and thus, wouldn't get angry.
This is not answering why there is no longer any sea in the new creation. It is raising an implication of there being no sea (which is fine), but says nothing as to why.
The inference would be god doesn't need to kill anyone that way (or do anything it did prior with water) from that point forward.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: "...and there was no longer any sea."

Post #17

Post by JehovahsWitness »

theophile wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:49 pm
This is not answering why there is no longer any sea in the new creation. ...
Are you asking why there will be no literal seas/oceans (H2O) or are you asking why there will be no symbolic sea (whatever that may represent)?




JW








RELATED POSTS
Does Genesis 1 refer to the creation of the literal seas/océans on this our planet earth?
viewtopic.php?p=1066494#p1066494


What are we to understand with the expression "God created the heavens"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 09#p763409
To learn more please go to other posts related to...

EVOLUTION, THE PLANET EARTH, and ...THE 7 CREATIVE DAYS OF GENESIS
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: "...and there was no longer any sea."

Post #18

Post by Miles »

theophile wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 8:55 am
Miles wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:15 am
Why was the sea formed in the first place?
Happenstance. Asteroids colliding with the young planet are most likely the primary source of water on Earth, with the water eventually collecting in Earth's enormous basins.
Sure, but this is the Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma board. Not science class. :)
Needs and wishes vs science.

Miles wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:15 am
Revelation 21:1 "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea."

. . . . why on earth would there no longer be any sea in the new creation?
The land was needed for farming and tractor pulls. But what interests me is, what happened to the first heaven? That supernatural place where beings such as gods, angels, saints, and the souls of good Christians are said to reside. Could god have actually lost his throne and all the clouds it sat on? Then, of course, there's the question of what happened to the first Earth? Did the planet just go ka-blooie? . . . . . . . However, considering that Revelations 1:1 says

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"
and the "must shortly come to pass" would have already come to pass by now, I think it can all be put back on the shelf and forgotten about.
I think 'heaven' (per Genesis 1) should be understood as the sky and space above. The sun, moon, and stars included. It is everything contained within the bounds of the firmament, which holds back the deep / waters outside.
Yeah, so just what constitutes a firmament? And what is "the deep / waters outside"? And where is this "outside"?

In terms of the timing of it all, well, what is 1000 (or even 10,000) years to God? Nothing wrong with creating a little urgency in folks to try and get the ball rolling.
Like lying to them. Gotcha. But to what end?


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Re: "...and there was no longer any sea."

Post #19

Post by theophile »

Mattman wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:02 pm [Replying to theophile in post #13]

I think you're pressing a metaphor for precision on a topic it isn't trying to discuss and for real-world applications it does not intend. I don't think John wants us to think that God is averse to water and so is withholding a sea from the new creation. I think John wants to say that the destructive (or perhaps deconstructive) effects of sin will be done away with in the new kingdom. I don't see how more is intended than that when he uses the symbol of the sea.
Perhaps. I get that the sea is a metaphor, but I also think it's one of the most important and under-recognized concepts from all the way back to Genesis 1:2 (or more precisely, 'the deep' is, which I would argue is the cosmic version of the more earthly 'sea'). And I think there are some subtleties at play here which requires a certain level of precision, especially as we try to understand these concepts and/or their relationship to sin, which is mostly what I've been trying to parse out in your view.

Also, to clarify, I don't think God is averse to 'water', or that God is trying to 'withhold' the sea from the new creation. I actually think that the sea is a positive character in all this (or has the potential to be). It may very well represent disorder / chaos (or something along those lines as you say), but I don't see these as a bad thing, or as being annulled by God's order in the end times. The potential for disorder can and should remain; the problem is when disorder is allowed to fester into outright rebellion (/sin).

That may get to the heart of our difference. I see a purposeful effort by the authors to preserve a little bit of chaos in the mix, and that disorder is almost a necessity for anything new and to keep things moving. We see this in Genesis 1 when 'the sea' is given a place on earth (like I said, an earthly version of the more cosmic 'deep'). We see it again in the serpent of Genesis 3. (This is in contradistinction to the Enuma Elish, where it is only out of the corpse of the sea / dragon Tiamat that order / life can flow...)

So if I jump to what I think the answer is to my question in the OP, it's not that the sea is destroyed, withheld, or anything like that. It's rather that the sea has at last been subdued (per Genesis 1) and joined to God in partnership. The churning waters of the sea are transformed into the 'water of life' (per Revelation 21:6), and its disordering power, rather than being annulled, or leading to rebellion (/sin), now flows down more positive channels.

Like I said, subtle shifts from what you laid out, but perhaps some key differences.

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Re: "...and there was no longer any sea."

Post #20

Post by JehovahsWitness »

theophile wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 2:00 pm

So if I jump to what I think the answer is to my question in the OP, it's not that the sea is destroyed, withheld, or anything like that. It's rather that the sea has at last been subdued (per Genesis 1) and joined to God in partnership. The churning waters of the sea are transformed into the 'water of life' (per Revelation 21:6), and its disordering power, rather than being annulled, or leading to rebellion (/sin), now flows down more positive channels.

Like I said, subtle shifts from what you laid out, but perhaps some key differences.
The inability (or unwillingness) to clearly define your terms makes nonsense of your argument.

The sea/waters of Genesis was either referring to H2O (or some kind of literal liquid element) or it was not. In order to build a post that sounds impressive to the uninitiated, you have to avoid answering this basic question. For if the "waters" of Genesis 1 was literal liquid or some other chemical element , you will have to explain what "the sea has at last been subdued (per Genesis 1) and joined to God in partnership" actually means ... And if "sea" is symbolic you will be pressed to answer the question "symbolic of what?"
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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