"...and there was no longer any sea."

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"...and there was no longer any sea."

Post #1

Post by theophile »

There are little curiosities peppered throughout the bible that we tend to overlook, so inconspicuously are they placed. But these little curiosities can be like a wrench in the works of our interpretation, even as they can be keys to unlocking the meaning of things. (If we can't explain them, and how they naturally flow from our interpretation, then we should be compelled to reconsider our views until we can, no matter how deep we must go.)

One such curiosity can be found in the book of Revelation, verse 21:1, which is essentially a repetition and play on Genesis 1:1 (i.e., an important passage evoking the beginning at the end).

Genesis 1:1: "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

Revelation 21:1: "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea."

The italicized bit is the curiosity and question for discussion, for why on earth would there no longer be any sea in the new creation? And why is it stated here of all places, tacked on as if in afterthought, to such a grand statement and vision introducing the world to come?

The importance cannot be denied: these two verses buttress the main arc of the bible (they are essentially the beginning and the end). Yet the meaning is... elusive. Almost like the waters of the sea itself if you try to grab hold.

So any thoughts on the matter? Some additional questions to help round out the discussion:
  • Why was the sea formed in the first place?
  • What is the sea representative of?
  • Is there a deeper origin to all this that we need to explore?

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Re: "...and there was no longer any sea."

Post #21

Post by theophile »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:32 pm
theophile wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:49 pm
This is not answering why there is no longer any sea in the new creation. ...
Are you asking why there will be no literal seas/oceans (H2O) or are you asking why there will be no symbolic sea (whatever that may represent)?
You tell me if it's a literal or symbolic sea... I tend to believe it's the latter, but open to any ideas on the matter.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:32 pm The inability (or unwillingness) to clearly define your terms makes nonsense of your argument.

The sea/waters of Genesis was either referring to H2O (or some kind of literal liquid element) or it was not. In order to build a post that sounds impressive to the uninitiated, you have to avoid answering this basic question. For if the "waters" of Genesis 1 was literal liquid or some other chemical element , you will have to explain what "the sea has at last been subdued (per Genesis 1) and joined to God in partnership" actually means ... And if "sea" is symbolic you will be pressed to answer the question "symbolic of what?"
In the post you referenced I said "It may very well represent disorder / chaos (or something along those lines as you say)," and used that as the working definition for the rest of that post. So let's go with that unless you have a different view (again, all ears).

We've also had a recent conversation on this before, where I believe I framed 'the deep' as an abyssal space. Something akin to a womb. And the waters as what occupies it in the primordial state. Essentially fluid matter, which is not far off from disorder/chaos. (Hence why I'm happy to go with the above.)

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Re: "...and there was no longer any sea."

Post #22

Post by theophile »

Miles wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:33 pm
theophile wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 8:55 am
Miles wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:15 am
Why was the sea formed in the first place?
Happenstance. Asteroids colliding with the young planet are most likely the primary source of water on Earth, with the water eventually collecting in Earth's enormous basins.
Sure, but this is the Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma board. Not science class. :)
Needs and wishes vs science.

Miles wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:15 am
Revelation 21:1 "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea."

. . . . why on earth would there no longer be any sea in the new creation?
The land was needed for farming and tractor pulls. But what interests me is, what happened to the first heaven? That supernatural place where beings such as gods, angels, saints, and the souls of good Christians are said to reside. Could god have actually lost his throne and all the clouds it sat on? Then, of course, there's the question of what happened to the first Earth? Did the planet just go ka-blooie? . . . . . . . However, considering that Revelations 1:1 says

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"
and the "must shortly come to pass" would have already come to pass by now, I think it can all be put back on the shelf and forgotten about.
I think 'heaven' (per Genesis 1) should be understood as the sky and space above. The sun, moon, and stars included. It is everything contained within the bounds of the firmament, which holds back the deep / waters outside.
Yeah, so just what constitutes a firmament? And what is "the deep / waters outside"? And where is this "outside"?

In terms of the timing of it all, well, what is 1000 (or even 10,000) years to God? Nothing wrong with creating a little urgency in folks to try and get the ball rolling.
Like lying to them. Gotcha. But to what end?


.
Most of this feels more appropriate for the apologetics board. The only relevant question I see is "what is 'the deep / waters outside'? And where is this 'outside'?"

Per previous post, I reckon the deep is an abyssal space. And the waters are representative of the fluid (/chaotic) matter that occupies it. It's what sets the scene for Genesis 1. (See Genesis 1:2 for example, where God's spirit is hovering over the waters of the deep, which is the point at which the creation of the heavens and earth began, i.e., "Let there be light", etc., etc...). It's essentially a cosmic sea.

As to where this 'outside' is, it's anywhere outside the bounds of the heavens and the earth (the firmament being the boundary). In Genesis 1, the heavens and the earth that God creates expands into the deep. The deep essentially envelops them, and this remains the case by the end of that narrative (as the rest of the biblical narrative kicks off).

Hence why I think it's so important a question that at the end of Revelation, there is no longer any sea.

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Re: "...and there was no longer any sea."

Post #23

Post by JehovahsWitness »

theophile wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:21 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:32 pm
theophile wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:49 pm
This is not answering why there is no longer any sea in the new creation. ...
Are you asking why there will be no literal seas/oceans (H2O) or are you asking why there will be no symbolic sea (whatever that may represent)?
... I tend to believe it's the latter, but open to any ideas on the matter.


Why? Why do you believe Genesis refers to a symbolic sea?
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Feb 09, 2022 7:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: "...and there was no longer any sea."

Post #24

Post by Miles »

theophile wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:46 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:33 pm
theophile wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 8:55 am
Miles wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:15 am
Why was the sea formed in the first place?
Happenstance. Asteroids colliding with the young planet are most likely the primary source of water on Earth, with the water eventually collecting in Earth's enormous basins.
Sure, but this is the Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma board. Not science class. :)
Needs and wishes vs science.

Miles wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:15 am
Revelation 21:1 "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea."

. . . . why on earth would there no longer be any sea in the new creation?
The land was needed for farming and tractor pulls. But what interests me is, what happened to the first heaven? That supernatural place where beings such as gods, angels, saints, and the souls of good Christians are said to reside. Could god have actually lost his throne and all the clouds it sat on? Then, of course, there's the question of what happened to the first Earth? Did the planet just go ka-blooie? . . . . . . . However, considering that Revelations 1:1 says

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"
and the "must shortly come to pass" would have already come to pass by now, I think it can all be put back on the shelf and forgotten about.
I think 'heaven' (per Genesis 1) should be understood as the sky and space above. The sun, moon, and stars included. It is everything contained within the bounds of the firmament, which holds back the deep / waters outside.
Yeah, so just what constitutes a firmament? And what is "the deep / waters outside"? And where is this "outside"?

In terms of the timing of it all, well, what is 1000 (or even 10,000) years to God? Nothing wrong with creating a little urgency in folks to try and get the ball rolling.
Like lying to them. Gotcha. But to what end?


.
Most of this feels more appropriate for the apologetics board. The only relevant question I see is "what is 'the deep / waters outside'? And where is this 'outside'?"
Hey, you're the one who brought up the firmament. So why is asking about it irrelevant?

Per previous post, I reckon the deep is an abyssal space. And the waters are representative of the fluid (/chaotic) matter that occupies it. It's what sets the scene for Genesis 1. (See Genesis 1:2 for example, where God's spirit is hovering over the waters of the deep, which is the point at which the creation of the heavens and earth began, i.e., "Let there be light", etc., etc...). It's essentially a cosmic sea.
Like this?

........................... Image


.

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Re: "...and there was no longer any sea."

Post #25

Post by theophile »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:51 pm
theophile wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:21 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:32 pm
theophile wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:49 pm
This is not answering why there is no longer any sea in the new creation. ...
Are you asking why there will be no literal seas/oceans (H2O) or are you asking why there will be no symbolic sea (whatever that may represent)?
... I tend to believe it's the latter, but open to any ideas on the matter.


Why? Why do you believe Genesis refers to a symbolic sea?
I say symbolic because I believe 'the sea' is utilized in Genesis 1 more for what it evokes. The deep / sea represents, I think, a largely unknown and fluid / chaotic domain. Having the potential to be both life giving and taking. It's qualities such as this that we are above all meant to read into the text, and that 'the sea' perfectly symbolizes.

That said, I think Genesis 1 is being literal here at the same time. Not in the sense of there being literal water outside the bounds of the heavens and the earth, but in the sense that there is an abyssal space out there that has very similar qualities as a literal sea.

Back to the answer to Revelation 21:1, if the goal is for God to become all in all (1 Corinthians 15:28), I would argue that it's by fulfilling the original mandate of Genesis 1 to "fill and subdue" the deep. It means that God must eventually expand the heavens out into it. Subduing and bringing all that it contains to God (as I said before, all joined to God in partnership, in one cosmic body if you prefer).

That's why in Revelation 21:1 there is no longer any sea.

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Re: "...and there was no longer any sea."

Post #26

Post by theophile »

Miles wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:18 pm
theophile wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:46 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:33 pm
theophile wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 8:55 am
Miles wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:15 am
Why was the sea formed in the first place?
Happenstance. Asteroids colliding with the young planet are most likely the primary source of water on Earth, with the water eventually collecting in Earth's enormous basins.
Sure, but this is the Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma board. Not science class. :)
Needs and wishes vs science.

Miles wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:15 am
Revelation 21:1 "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea."

. . . . why on earth would there no longer be any sea in the new creation?
The land was needed for farming and tractor pulls. But what interests me is, what happened to the first heaven? That supernatural place where beings such as gods, angels, saints, and the souls of good Christians are said to reside. Could god have actually lost his throne and all the clouds it sat on? Then, of course, there's the question of what happened to the first Earth? Did the planet just go ka-blooie? . . . . . . . However, considering that Revelations 1:1 says

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"
and the "must shortly come to pass" would have already come to pass by now, I think it can all be put back on the shelf and forgotten about.
I think 'heaven' (per Genesis 1) should be understood as the sky and space above. The sun, moon, and stars included. It is everything contained within the bounds of the firmament, which holds back the deep / waters outside.
Yeah, so just what constitutes a firmament? And what is "the deep / waters outside"? And where is this "outside"?

In terms of the timing of it all, well, what is 1000 (or even 10,000) years to God? Nothing wrong with creating a little urgency in folks to try and get the ball rolling.
Like lying to them. Gotcha. But to what end?


.
Most of this feels more appropriate for the apologetics board. The only relevant question I see is "what is 'the deep / waters outside'? And where is this 'outside'?"
Hey, you're the one who brought up the firmament. So why is asking about it irrelevant?

Per previous post, I reckon the deep is an abyssal space. And the waters are representative of the fluid (/chaotic) matter that occupies it. It's what sets the scene for Genesis 1. (See Genesis 1:2 for example, where God's spirit is hovering over the waters of the deep, which is the point at which the creation of the heavens and earth began, i.e., "Let there be light", etc., etc...). It's essentially a cosmic sea.
Like this?

........................... Image

.
The firmament is borderline relevant. Quite literally in fact, since like I said before it is the borderline between creation and the great deep that surrounds it. It's what holds the waters back and prevents them from washing away creation.

So yes, exactly like the image you posted. (Apart from the 'heaven of heavens', 'underworld' and 'pillars of the earth' - which are not part of the cosmology presented in Genesis 1. (The image should just be the heavens and the earth surrounded by the great deep, and we can debate these other details that come from later biblical references and how they fit in.))

As an analogy (since you like science), I would say that the deep is very much akin to what lies outside the bounds of our physical universe. i.e., it's an unknown domain filled with God knows what. Like an old map that charts the edges of the world sea: it's a place where "here be dragons".

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Re: "...and there was no longer any sea."

Post #27

Post by JehovahsWitness »

theophile wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 9:30 am

I say symbolic because I believe 'the sea' is utilized in Genesis 1 more for what it evokes. The deep / sea represents, I think, a largely unknown and fluid / chaotic domain. Having the potential to be both life giving and taking. It's qualities such as this that we are above all meant to read into the text, and that 'the sea' perfectly symbolizes.

That said, I think Genesis 1 is being literal here at the same time. Not in the sense of there being literal water outside the bounds of the heavens and the earth, but in the sense that there is an abyssal space out there that has very similar qualities as a literal sea.
Do you actually know you have not presented one single reason for your belief?
I believe Genesis is symbolic because ... [here one would normally insert a fact/a reference/some rationale]
I'll leave you for now because I honestly don't think you are being deliberately evasive; it could be you have been subject to higher education or a theological curriculum.




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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Romans 14:8

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Re: "...and there was no longer any sea."

Post #28

Post by theophile »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 11:12 am
theophile wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 9:30 am

I say symbolic because I believe 'the sea' is utilized in Genesis 1 more for what it evokes. The deep / sea represents, I think, a largely unknown and fluid / chaotic domain. Having the potential to be both life giving and taking. It's qualities such as this that we are above all meant to read into the text, and that 'the sea' perfectly symbolizes.

That said, I think Genesis 1 is being literal here at the same time. Not in the sense of there being literal water outside the bounds of the heavens and the earth, but in the sense that there is an abyssal space out there that has very similar qualities as a literal sea.
Do you actually know you have not presented one single reason for your belief?
I believe Genesis is symbolic because ... [here one would normally insert a fact/a reference/some rationale]
I'll leave you for now because I honestly don't think you are being deliberately evasive; it could be you have been subject to higher education or a theological curriculum.

JW
Okay... What exactly is your view and "reason"? Do you believe there is a literal sea / water surrounding creation?

Have I said anything false? Please point out if so versus the non-argument you provided here. Or sure, leave it for now. Fine by me.

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Re: "...and there was no longer any sea."

Post #29

Post by Miles »

theophile wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 9:48 am
Miles wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:18 pm
theophile wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:46 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:33 pm
theophile wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 8:55 am
Miles wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:15 am
Why was the sea formed in the first place?
Happenstance. Asteroids colliding with the young planet are most likely the primary source of water on Earth, with the water eventually collecting in Earth's enormous basins.
Sure, but this is the Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma board. Not science class. :)
Needs and wishes vs science.

Miles wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:15 am
Revelation 21:1 "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea."

. . . . why on earth would there no longer be any sea in the new creation?
The land was needed for farming and tractor pulls. But what interests me is, what happened to the first heaven? That supernatural place where beings such as gods, angels, saints, and the souls of good Christians are said to reside. Could god have actually lost his throne and all the clouds it sat on? Then, of course, there's the question of what happened to the first Earth? Did the planet just go ka-blooie? . . . . . . . However, considering that Revelations 1:1 says

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"
and the "must shortly come to pass" would have already come to pass by now, I think it can all be put back on the shelf and forgotten about.
I think 'heaven' (per Genesis 1) should be understood as the sky and space above. The sun, moon, and stars included. It is everything contained within the bounds of the firmament, which holds back the deep / waters outside.
Yeah, so just what constitutes a firmament? And what is "the deep / waters outside"? And where is this "outside"?

In terms of the timing of it all, well, what is 1000 (or even 10,000) years to God? Nothing wrong with creating a little urgency in folks to try and get the ball rolling.
Like lying to them. Gotcha. But to what end?


.
Most of this feels more appropriate for the apologetics board. The only relevant question I see is "what is 'the deep / waters outside'? And where is this 'outside'?"
Hey, you're the one who brought up the firmament. So why is asking about it irrelevant?

Per previous post, I reckon the deep is an abyssal space. And the waters are representative of the fluid (/chaotic) matter that occupies it. It's what sets the scene for Genesis 1. (See Genesis 1:2 for example, where God's spirit is hovering over the waters of the deep, which is the point at which the creation of the heavens and earth began, i.e., "Let there be light", etc., etc...). It's essentially a cosmic sea.
Like this?

........................... Image

.
The firmament is borderline relevant. Quite literally in fact, since like I said before it is the borderline between creation and the great deep that surrounds it. It's what holds the waters back and prevents them from washing away creation.

So yes, exactly like the image you posted.
So these waters that are being held back exist where? Beyond the bounds of our universe, currently calculated to be 46.5 billion light-years away, which would encompass a sphere of galaxies 93 billion light-years in diameter? C'mon. Even this is too fantastical to swallow.



.

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Re: "...and there was no longer any sea."

Post #30

Post by JehovahsWitness »

#QUESTION: What is the "firmament" spoken of in GENESIS?

Genesis explains that god said “‘Let an expanse come to be in between the waters and let a dividing occur between the waters and the waters.”—Genesis 1:6-8.

Some translations use the word “firmament” instead of “expanse.”
While the root word (ra•qa) from which raqi´; is drawn is regularly used in the sense of “beating out” something solid, the word is also used in scriptures in a in the non literal sense or figurative senses. Even the King James Version Bible, which uses “firmament,” says in the margin, “expansion.” This is because the Hebrew word ra•qi translated “expanse,” means to stretch out or spread out or expand.
So Genesis describes the formation of the atmospheric expanse [space] surrounding the earth. Evidently, at one time the entire globe was previously enveloped in water vapor* but eventually this protective atmosphere developed.

Image

* This accords with scientific reasoning on the early stages of the planet’s formation and the view that at one time all of earth’s water existed in the form of atmospheric vapor because of the extreme heat of the earth’s surface at that point

http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/ec ... -world/580

Image

PSALM 91: 1

"The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork. -- English Standard Version (©2001)

"The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament showeth his handiwork. -- American Standard Version

"The heavens are telling of the glory of God; And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands. -- New American Standard Bible (©1995)





FURTHER READING
http://creation.com/is-the-raqiya-firma ... solid-dome
==========================================================


Regarding the 'waters above': Professor Henry M. Morris of the Virginia Polytechnic Institute examines, comments:

“The region above about 80 miles is very hot, over 100 deg F. and possibly rising to 3000 deg. F., and is in fact called the thermosphere for that reason. High temperature, of course, is the chief requisite for retaining a large quantity of water vapor. Furthermore, it is known that water vapor is substantially lighter than air. [...] There is thus nothing physically impossible about the concept of a vast thermal vapor blanket once existing in the upper atmosphere.”
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Fri Feb 11, 2022 1:37 am, edited 4 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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