Is the Cannon of Scripture Closed?

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Is the Cannon of Scripture Closed?

Post #1

Post by Revelations won »

Is the Cannon of Scripture Closed?

If so by whom?

Who had the authority to close and strop revelations from God?

Approximately on what date did this occur?

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Re: Is the Cannon of Scripture Closed?

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Post by 2ndpillar2 »

Revelations won wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 11:53 am Is the Cannon of Scripture Closed?

If so by whom?

Who had the authority to close and strop revelations from God?

Approximately on what date did this occur?
A better question would be by whose authority was the NT cannon opened and closed. That would be by the authority of the bishop of Alexandria in 367 A.D. by his own authority, as a bishop in the Roman church, whose authority came from Rome, whose authority comes from the "dragon" (Revelation 16:4), upon whom the woman (Babylon the Great" sits (Revelation 17:3-5).

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Re: Is the Cannon of Scripture Closed?

Post #12

Post by historia »

Miles wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 2:49 pm
historia wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:57 am
Miles wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 6:44 pm
I mean, if there was more to be said why wait thousands of years to say it? Especially wait until now when so few people are Christians who would listen and take it to heart?

Image
I don't think that graph says what you think it says.

There are, after all, more people today who identify as Christian -- and they are more geographically dispersed, the point of the graph -- than at any other time in history.
If you're thinking the graph represents the distribution of all Christians, this couldn't be the case because as I read the percentages for 2100 they only add up to 50.5%.
That's because, for some odd reason, someone manipulated this graph (see the original version) to remove Africa, which includes the other 50%.

This graph is simply showing which percentage of the world's Christians live in each continent.
Miles wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 2:49 pm
Although. . . looking back at world religion stats it appears Christianity comprises less than 32% of the world's religions. Hmmmm?
That's correct. Christians have been roughly a third of the world's population throughout the 20th and early 21st centuries. Prior to that, Christians were a smaller percentage of the world's population.
Miles wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 2:49 pm
But what I really found interesting is that while Christianity is growing in numbers it's percentage of the world religions has been dramatically shrinking: SEE HERE (A cool animated graphic.)
Again, I don't think that animation says what you think it says. Here is a more comprehensive set of statics -- not just tracking some of the world's religions, as that animation did.

As you can see, between 1900 and the present (with projections out to 2050), the percentage of the world's population that identifies as Christian has been roughly the same.

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Re: Is the Cannon of Scripture Closed?

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Post by historia »

2ndpillar2 wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 4:21 pm
A better question would be by whose authority was the NT cannon opened and closed. That would be by the authority of the bishop of Alexandria in 367 A.D. by his own authority, as a bishop in the Roman church, whose authority came from Rome
This is historically inaccurate on all counts. Athansius did not "open" the NT cannon (whatever that means) and certainly did not close it. And, as the bishop of Alexandria, his authority did not come from the bishop of Rome.

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Re: Is the Cannon of Scripture Closed?

Post #14

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

historia wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 7:50 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 4:21 pm
A better question would be by whose authority was the NT cannon opened and closed. That would be by the authority of the bishop of Alexandria in 367 A.D. by his own authority, as a bishop in the Roman church, whose authority came from Rome
This is historically inaccurate on all counts. Athansius did not "open" the NT cannon (whatever that means) and certainly did not close it. And, as the bishop of Alexandria, his authority did not come from the bishop of Rome.
You can pontificate all you want. The authority of the Roman church, came from the Roman empire (Revelation 17:3), in which the Roman emperor Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea, which determined the primary Trinity dogma, which was the basis of the official Roman church per Theodosius in 380 A.D, whose power came from the "dragon" (Revelation 13:4). Prior to Easter (feast of the pagan god Astarte) of 367 A.D., there was no canon, which is to say, it was the start of that canon, and as of today, that NT canon has not been reopened as to respect to its general acceptance. As for the bishop of Rome, he didn't even go to the Council of Nicaea, which was dominated by the Eastern empire bishops. The bishop of Rome was not the Pontifex Maximus, whose origins was as the leadership of the pagan religion, but during the Council of Nicaea, that position was held by the Roman emperor Constantine, by way of Julius Caesar as keeper of the gods and the calendar, as represented by the Julian calendar. The position of the keeper of the gods, was later usurped by the Roman pope, as in the god idols have been kept in the basement of the Vatican, as well as in the churches of Rome, as well as the calendar being changed by pope Gregory.

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Re: Is the Cannon of Scripture Closed?

Post #15

Post by historia »

2ndpillar2 wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 11:31 am
Prior to Easter . . . of 367 A.D., there was no canon, which is to say, it was the start of that canon
This is demonstrably false. Prior to 367, there were a number of canonical lists, including those put forward by Origen, Eusebius, the Muratorian fragment, and the Council of Laodicea, among others.

So it is simple ignorance to say Athanasius' festal letter of 367 somehow "opened" or was the "start" of the canon.
2ndpillar2 wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 11:31 am
and as of today, that NT canon has not been reopened as to respect to its general acceptance.
Athanasius was the first Christian author to list the 27-book NT canon (and only those books) we possess today. But he did not -- indeed, could not -- make that decision for all churches. His list was only authoritative for the churches in Alexandria. Later lists, particularly among eastern authors and synods, did not match Athanasius' list exactly, often excluding Revelation.

So it is simple ignorance to say Athanasius' festal letter of 367 somehow "closed" the canon.

See Development of the New Testament canon.

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Re: Is the Cannon of Scripture Closed?

Post #16

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

historia wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:56 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 11:31 am
Prior to Easter . . . of 367 A.D., there was no canon, which is to say, it was the start of that canon
This is demonstrably false. Prior to 367, there were a number of canonical lists, including those put forward by Origen, Eusebius, the Muratorian fragment, and the Council of Laodicea, among others.

So it is simple ignorance to say Athanasius' festal letter of 367 somehow "opened" or was the "start" of the canon.
2ndpillar2 wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 11:31 am
and as of today, that NT canon has not been reopened as to respect to its general acceptance.
Athanasius was the first Christian author to list the 27-book NT canon (and only those books) we possess today. But he did not -- indeed, could not -- make that decision for all churches. His list was only authoritative for the churches in Alexandria. Later lists, particularly among eastern authors and synods, did not match Athanasius' list exactly, often excluding Revelation.

So it is simple ignorance to say Athanasius' festal letter of 367 somehow "closed" the canon.

See Development of the New Testament canon.
There were no lists, generally accepted by the "Christians" of today, besides the list presented by Athanasius, the canon used by most of all "Christianity", including the Protestant and the Roman Catholic. As for the Arian leader, Eusebius, having a canon, get real, he put together a bible for the Roman emperor Constantine, which does not exist today except for a comment with respect to one chapter which does not exist in the present accepted canon. Since Constantine decreed that all writings of Arius were to be burned, he probably had to burn the bible put together by Eusebius, a leader of the Arians. While Luther tried to change the canon, to better fit the false gospel of grace, presented by the false prophet Paul, he failed. Luther tried to exclude Revelation, yet his whole premise was that the Roman church was the daughter of Babylon, which comes from Revelation 17. As for a couple of gospels incorporated into the lies of the Fathers of the nations/Gentiles (Jeremiah 16:19), that does not represent a canon. Athanasius opened and closed the door with respect to the generally accepted cannon used by the "many". His canon was correct in that it contained the tare seed, the message of the devil, mixed in with the message of the son of man, but the reasoning for that ends at the "end of the age" (Matthew 13:38-42).

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Re: Is the Cannon of Scripture Closed?

Post #17

Post by historia »

2ndpillar2 wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 7:14 pm
There were no lists, generally accepted by the "Christians" of today, besides the list presented by Athanasius, the canon used by most of all "Christianity", including the Protestant and the Roman Catholic.
If by that you mean that the list of books Athansius described matches the 27-book NT canon accepted today, then that is true.

But your assertion that there was "no canon" before Athanasius or that he "opened" the canon is clearly false. The Wikipedia article above demonstrates that there were several canonical lists before Athansius. Moreover, your assertion that he "closed" the canon or that it is somehow on his "authority" that the current canon was fixed are equally refuted by the article.

Your assertions here are obviously and demonstrably false. Pretending otherwise just makes you look foolish.
2ndpillar2 wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 7:14 pm
As for the Arian leader, Eusebius, having a canon, get real
You are confused. I was referring to Eusebius of Caesarea, not Eusebius of Nicomedia.
2ndpillar2 wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 7:14 pm
Athanasius opened and closed the door with respect to the generally accepted cannon used by the "many".
No, this is pure fantasy on your part.

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Re: Is the Cannon of Scripture Closed?

Post #18

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

historia wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:52 am
2ndpillar2 wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 7:14 pm
There were no lists, generally accepted by the "Christians" of today, besides the list presented by Athanasius, the canon used by most of all "Christianity", including the Protestant and the Roman Catholic.
If by that you mean that the list of books Athansius described matches the 27-book NT canon accepted today, then that is true.

But your assertion that there was "no canon" before Athanasius or that he "opened" the canon is clearly false. The Wikipedia article above demonstrates that there were several canonical lists before Athansius. Moreover, your assertion that he "closed" the canon or that it is somehow on his "authority" that the current canon was fixed are equally refuted by the article.

Your assertions here are obviously and demonstrably false. Pretending otherwise just makes you look foolish.
2ndpillar2 wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 7:14 pm
As for the Arian leader, Eusebius, having a canon, get real
You are confused. I was referring to Eusebius of Caesarea, not Eusebius of Nicomedia.
2ndpillar2 wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 7:14 pm
Athanasius opened and closed the door with respect to the generally accepted cannon used by the "many".
No, this is pure fantasy on your part.
My point was that according to Revelation, the power of Rome comes from the "dragon"/"devil" (Revelation 13:4), whereas the power of the church, the harlot daughters of Babylon (Revelation 17:4), comes from Rome, whereas all the power comes indirectly or directly from the "dragon"/"devil". As for you segments of the current canon, they came from the Fathers of the Gentile church, which according to Jeremiah 16:19, are purveyors of "falsehood", for which the survivors of the "nations"/Gentiles, will have to confess of following "falsehoods". The lost 50 bibles coming from Constantine, by way of Eusebius, had only one reference, and history only referred to a book not in the current canon. The Gentile churches, such as by way of Luther, tried to eliminate Revelation, because it stated that Ephesus, an abode of Paul, was the home of false apostles, and that the "wealthy" church in Laodicea is "wretched, miserable, poor, blind and naked church. Not a good starting point. Athanasius's authority came from being an accepted Trinity bishop under the authority of Rome, whereas Arius was expelled for challenging the Trinity heresy.

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Re: Is the Cannon of Scripture Closed?

Post #19

Post by Revelations won »

Dear Miles,

Thank you for your response. By the way your chart is most interesting. If the indicated trend continues where would the lines bottom out within 25 years?

To date I do not recall anyone stating by what date the cannon of scripture was officially closed and by whom.....

Kind regards,
RW

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Re: Is the Cannon of Scripture Closed?

Post #20

Post by Revelations won »

Dear second pillar,

2ndpillar2 wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 26, 2022 3:21 pm

“A better question would be by whose authority was the NT cannon opened and closed. That would be by the authority of the bishop of Alexandria in 367 A.D. by his own authority, as a bishop in the Roman church, whose authority came from Rome
This is historically inaccurate on all counts. Athansius did not "open" the NT cannon (whatever that means) and certainly did not close it. And, as the bishop of Alexandria, his authority did not come from the bishop of Rome.”

So where did he receive his authority to either open, add to or close the cannon of scripture?

Kind regards,
RW

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