God, Carnage, And Rape

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Miles
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God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #1

Post by Miles »

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In Numbers 31 we have god speaking to Moses:

"Numbers 31 . . .
1 "The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Get even with the Midianites for what they did to the Israelites. After that you will join your ancestors in death” 3 So Moses spoke to the people."

and sent 12,000 off to war. (The carnage takes place between verses 7 and 12.) After killing the Midianite solders the Israelite army took the Midianite women and children as prisoners, which was against Moses's instructions. When Moses found out about this he was. . .

14. . .very angry with the officers of the army, the commanders of the companies and battalions, who were returning from battle. 15 “Why did you let all the women live?” he asked them. 16 “Remember, they were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the incident that took place at Peor. The Lord’s community experienced a plague at that time. 17 So kill all the Midianite boys and every Midianite woman who has gone to bed with a man. 18 But save for yourselves every girl who has never gone to bed with a man. 19 “Everyone who killed a person or touched a dead body must stay outside the camp seven days. You and your prisoners of war must use the ritual water on the third and seventh days in order to take away your sin. 20 Do the same for all the clothes and everything made of leather, goats’ hair, or wood.”


That god found the foregoing acceptable is borne out by his lack of any comment about it, and by pressing on to further issues, such as how the spoils of the war were to be divvied up.

25 The Lord said to Moses, 26 “You, the priest Eleazar, and the heads of the families of the community need to count all the loot, including the people and animals you captured. 27 Divide the loot between the soldiers who served in the war and the rest of the community. 28 Collect a tax for the Lord. From the soldiers who served in the war collect one out of every 500 things. This includes people, cattle, donkeys, sheep, and goats.


My concern here is verse 18 where Moses tells the conquering soldiers "18 But save for yourselves every girl who has never gone to bed with a man."

In effect, god is saying:"You have my permission to rape them." I say this because there is no mention or even implication that the soldiers need first marry the girls, or even marry them at all. Plus a women's consent is never mentioned. Like it or not, a soldier could take what ever virgin girl he desired, to which the girl is never given the option to decline. Pretty much a matter of rape as I see it.


The verse from other translations.

VOICE
As for the virgins, you can take them, as you desire.

MEV
But keep alive for yourselves all the young girls who have not known a man by lying with him.

GW
But save for yourselves every girl who has never gone to bed with a man.

CJB
But the young girls who have never slept with a man, keep alive for yourselves.

GNV
But all the women-children that have not known carnal copulation, keep alive for yourselves.

NKJV
But keep alive for yourselves all the young girls who have not known a man intimately.

ISV
You are to allow the young women who haven’t yet had sexual relations with a man to live for yourselves.”


So, hasn't god aided and perhaps even abetted rape? If not, hasn't he at least condoned it? I say, he most certainly has.


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Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #21

Post by Miles »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 12:39 am .

First off, before I dissect this post, let me just say..

I find it remarkable how skeptics will always point out what they believe to be atrocities as it pertains to God's character acts of discipline, judgement, and anger towards evil people or nations.

However, they are silent when the Bible speaks on God's act of blessings, rewards, kindness, mercy and forgiveness.
Yup. While you see the glass as half full we see it as empty. :mrgreen:

Second, the atheist would need to explain where they get their objective moral values and duties from, and also why are those standards more superior than that of God's, and as long as they acknowledge that their moral standards are subjective, then at that point we are just arguing which of the two pizzas are better; the one with the pepperoni, or the one with the pineapples.
Perhaps it's because atheists don't subscribe to objective moral values and duties. Ever think of that?

As for the rest of your post, sorry, but I'm just not up to going over your "dissection." I'm sure it might even be interesting. ;)


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Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #22

Post by JehovahsWitness »

COULD A SOLDIER RAPE A SLAVE WITH IMPUNITY?


Both rape and sex slavery was absolutely abhorent to the fundiments of the Torah. If anyone were to have sex with a virgin (slave or free woman) , under the Mosaic law, marriage was obligatory (unless the father refused). The fact that non-hebrew slaves were obtained primarily through military conquests, did not mitigate the protections afforted to her person under the Mosaic law. Keeping ANY girl her as a "sex slave" (ie. abusing her physically, raping her with impunity, denying her or her children any rights under law, physically restraining her (tying her up, locking her in a cage etc)... and/or prostituting her for financial gain) absolutely illegal under hebrew law.

If a soldier took a child and wanted to eventually (there is no evidence that child marriage was something usually practiced in Israel) have sex with her, he would have to MARRY her first. Since sex outside of marriage with a virgin was a punishible offense, irrespective of the girls origins, nothing essentially in the status of a war captive (or that of any children use would eventually have) that would differ from that of any Hebrew wife or children (also viewed as the man's "property")*.


*being viewed as "property" is somewhat difficult concept for the 21st century reader, but the fact is ALL wives (children and slaves) were thus viewed. Indeed, the English word for husband alluded historically to the notion of "ownership"/"management" (of property). That the slave (or the wife) was spoken of as the man's "property" in no way indicates abuse or mistreatment, much less "sex slavery" rather that the woman came under the man's protection and had a permanent place in his household.



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Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #23

Post by Tcg »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:05 am
Sex slavery was absolutely abhorent to the fundiments of the Torah.
So was adultery. That didn't stop David from committing it. It certainly wouldn't stop blood thirsty warriors from practicing sex slavery. Jehovah was a God of favoritism. What his favorites got away with is quite different from what he expected of others.


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Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #24

Post by Tcg »

Tcg wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:14 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:05 am
Sex slavery was absolutely abhorent to the fundiments of the Torah.
So was adultery. That didn't stop David from committing it. It certainly wouldn't stop blood thirsty warriors from practicing sex slavery. Jehovah was a God of favoritism. What his favorites got away with is quite different from what he expected of others. We still see the same today in Catholicism, Sothern Baptists and Jehovah's Witnesses among others. When it comes to sexual predation, all rules are off.


Tcg

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Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #25

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

Tcg wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:24 am
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 12:39 am
Or maybe the implication is; "You were once prohibited from marrying foreigners, but since these foreign women (Midianites) will now be integrated within Israelite society, you are free to marry them as you please".
Do you have a reference for this passage or are you creating new scripture? Do we need to create a new book called "We are Venom?" Would it be part of the Newer than New Testament?


Tcg
Reading comprehension.

I made an inference based on my understanding of the text...the same way that Miles did.

Yet, you didn't ask Miles the same question you asked me.

Tsk, tsk.
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Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #26

Post by Tcg »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:31 am
Tcg wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:24 am
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 12:39 am
Or maybe the implication is; "You were once prohibited from marrying foreigners, but since these foreign women (Midianites) will now be integrated within Israelite society, you are free to marry them as you please".
Do you have a reference for this passage or are you creating new scripture? Do we need to create a new book called "We are Venom?" Would it be part of the Newer than New Testament?


Tcg
Reading comprehension.

I made an inference based on my understanding of the text...the same way that Miles did.

Yet, you didn't ask Miles the same question you asked me.

Tsk, tsk.
So, is this an admission that your addition to scripture should or should not be added to the cannon?


Tcg
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- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #27

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

Miles wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:04 am Yup. While you see the glass as half full we see it as empty. :mrgreen:
Thus; the point of contention.
Perhaps it's because atheists don't subscribe to objective moral values and duties. Ever think of that?
Yeah, I also thought about how the absence of objective morals values and duties on atheism renders this entire topic as subjective and meaningless.
As for the rest of your post, sorry, but I'm just not up to going over your "dissection." I'm sure it might even be interesting. ;)
And im sure it might have even refuted all of your misrepresentations and falsehoods about the character of the Biblical God.

And you dont have to respond; but I said what I said..and my post is here to stay.
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Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #28

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

Tcg wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:49 am
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:31 am
Tcg wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:24 am
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 12:39 am
Or maybe the implication is; "You were once prohibited from marrying foreigners, but since these foreign women (Midianites) will now be integrated within Israelite society, you are free to marry them as you please".
Do you have a reference for this passage or are you creating new scripture? Do we need to create a new book called "We are Venom?" Would it be part of the Newer than New Testament?


Tcg
Reading comprehension.

I made an inference based on my understanding of the text...the same way that Miles did.

Yet, you didn't ask Miles the same question you asked me.

Tsk, tsk.
So, is this an admission that your addition to scripture should or should not be added to the cannon?


Tcg
No, it is a realization of the buddy-buddy, double standards that continue to plague this forum.
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Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #29

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Tcg wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:14 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:05 am
Sex slavery was absolutely abhorent to the fundiments of the Torah.
So was adultery. That didn't stop David from committing it.
So? So what?! Just laws are not devalued by those that infringe on them. We don't criticise laws against child abuse because there are child abusers. As has already been highlighted, soldiers were not considered above the law. The bible indicates they were expected to refrain from sexual intercourse during their missions and even though they were considered Gods army, their ceremonial uncleaness upon their return was in recognition of the seriousness of taking a life.

While we cannot say there were no perverse debased individuals in Israel, they would have had to be perverse and debased on the run or in hiding, for rape and sex slavery were illegal. The benjamite wars illustrate that such debased behaviours were culturally abhorent to the Hebrews.
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Thu Mar 31, 2022 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #30

Post by 2timothy316 »

Miles wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:36 am
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 9:34 pm
Miles wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 7:12 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 3:43 pm
Miles wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 3:39 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:43 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:57 pm
My concern here is verse 18 where Moses tells the conquering soldiers "18 But save for yourselves every girl who has never gone to bed with a man."

In effect, god is saying:"You have my permission to rape them." I say this because there is no mention or even implication that the soldiers need first marry the girls, or even marry them at all. Plus a women's consent is never mentioned. Like it or not, a soldier could take what ever virgin girl he desired, to which the girl is never given the option to decline. Pretty much a matter of rape as I see it.
Sex was not allowed under the law during military campaigns for Israel. So, it is not 'as you see it'.
1Sa 21:5; 2Sa 11:6-11.
Well the "campaign" described in Numbers 3 was over with. And, as Tcg rightly pointed out. "it doesn't change what would have happened to these virgins after the campaigns."

.
Change what?
". . . what would have happened to these virgins after the campaigns."


You have not shown proof of rape after the campaign.
I don't believe I need to.
Frankly what you believe is not admissible neither is speculation. Its about what you can prove using the Bible in this forum. So back up your statement using the Bible or concede.
Sorry, I was unaware you had been appointed Gate-Keeper of Believability and Speculation. In which case please bear with me while I fix my comment: . . . . "I don't ̶b̶e̶l̶i̶e̶v̶e̶ ̶I̶ need to." There, we good now? Of course we are. :mrgreen: NOW, on with your critique of what I said following my opening remark here. We await your cogent rebuttal.



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Guidlines of this forum.
"In this subforum the canon of the Bible is considered authoritative with respect to the historical consensus of the canon's content."
So yes you need to proved Biblical proof of your claim. If there is no Bible evidence then there is no reason to believe what you say and thus nothing to rebut.
Your claims are not considered authoritative. No proof no argument. It's that simple. If you want to make unsubstantiated claim go ahead but it doesn't do anything to make your claim true.

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