God, Carnage, And Rape

[Miles]

.


In Numbers 31 we have god speaking to Moses:

"Numbers 31 . . .
1 "The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Get even with the Midianites for what they did to the Israelites. After that you will join your ancestors in death” 3 So Moses spoke to the people."

and sent 12,000 off to war. (The carnage takes place between verses 7 and 12.) After killing the Midianite solders the Israelite army took the Midianite women and children as prisoners, which was against Moses's instructions. When Moses found out about this he was. . .

14. . .very angry with the officers of the army, the commanders of the companies and battalions, who were returning from battle. 15 “Why did you let all the women live?” he asked them. 16 “Remember, they were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the incident that took place at Peor. The Lord’s community experienced a plague at that time. 17 So kill all the Midianite boys and every Midianite woman who has gone to bed with a man. 18 But save for yourselves every girl who has never gone to bed with a man. 19 “Everyone who killed a person or touched a dead body must stay outside the camp seven days. You and your prisoners of war must use the ritual water on the third and seventh days in order to take away your sin. 20 Do the same for all the clothes and everything made of leather, goats’ hair, or wood.”

That god found the foregoing acceptable is borne out by his lack of any comment about it, and by pressing on to further issues, such as how the spoils of the war were to be divvied up.

25 The Lord said to Moses, 26 “You, the priest Eleazar, and the heads of the families of the community need to count all the loot, including the people and animals you captured. 27 Divide the loot between the soldiers who served in the war and the rest of the community. 28 Collect a tax for the Lord. From the soldiers who served in the war collect one out of every 500 things. This includes people, cattle, donkeys, sheep, and goats.

My concern here is verse 18 where Moses tells the conquering soldiers "18 But save for yourselves every girl who has never gone to bed with a man."

In effect, god is saying:"You have my permission to rape them." I say this because there is no mention or even implication that the soldiers need first marry the girls, or even marry them at all. Plus a women's consent is never mentioned. Like it or not, a soldier could take what ever virgin girl he desired, to which the girl is never given the option to decline. Pretty much a matter of rape as I see it.


The verse from other translations.

VOICE
As for the virgins, you can take them, as you desire.

MEV
But keep alive for yourselves all the young girls who have not known a man by lying with him.

GW
But save for yourselves every girl who has never gone to bed with a man.

CJB
But the young girls who have never slept with a man, keep alive for yourselves.

GNV
But all the women-children that have not known carnal copulation, keep alive for yourselves.

NKJV
But keep alive for yourselves all the young girls who have not known a man intimately.

ISV
You are to allow the young women who haven’t yet had sexual relations with a man to live for yourselves.”

So, hasn't god aided and perhaps even abetted rape? If not, hasn't he at least condoned it? I say, he most certainly has.


.

[2timothy316]

So if Israel was following God's commandments then rape wasn't happening.

Just taking young girls by force after slaughtering their families, which is apparently different and somehow involves consent?

Lets test your knowledge of history. Do you know why Israel had to go in and destroy nations around them?
No one faithful to God just woke up one day and decided, 'hey lets go wipe out a nation today'.

So saying God condones rape is false and a product of a bias imagination.

I think I know where the "bias imagination" is.

Me too, with anyone that makes a claim without any reference to support their claim. People with a 'bias imagination' just speak whatever comes out of their head. I use scripture to support my arguments and "In this subforum the canon of the Bible is considered authoritative with respect to the historical consensus of the canon's content."

So when someone says, 'virgins where raped' with no scriptural support with a known hate for religion, there's your bias imagination.

[Tcg]

Sex slavery was absolutely abhorent to the fundiments of the Torah.

So was adultery. That didn't stop David from committing it.

So? So what?! Just laws are not devalued by those that infringe on them.

I said nothing about laws being devalued. I pointed out that laws are regularly ignored. There's a massive difference.


Tcg

[2timothy316]

Jehovah was a God of favoritism. What his favorites got away with is quite different from what he expected of others.


Tcg

Can you show us in the scriptures why?

[Difflugia]

It is merely an assumption that "take" is a euphemism for "rape".

"Merely an assumption?" You apparently bought the cheaper Bible that doesn't come with any context. I'll help you out.

Judges 21:6-7—"The poor Benjamite soldiers still alive have no wives or children because we slaughtered them."

21:8—"I know, we have an excuse to slaughter any Israelites that didn't join us in slaughtering the Benjamites? We'll slaughter them now, but keep the young girls for the Benjamites."

21:9-10—"Sweet! The Jabesh-gileadites didn't join us! We can slaughter them."

21:11—"Let's offer (ḥerem) the human beings of Jabesh-gilead as holy sacrifices unto Jehovah."

21:12—"Save the little girls this time, though, because the Benjamites need them more than Jehovah does."

21:14—And they gave the four hundred girls they didn't kill to the Benjamites.

Now, the Bible doesn't explicitly say that the Benjamites proposed on bended knee to their new blushing brides-to-be, but since this is TD&D, we can treat "possible" as "ineluctable fact." The only question I now have is this: did the Benjamites propose to the girls before they sacrificed their families to Jehovah or after?

[Difflugia]

Me too, with anyone that makes a claim without any reference to support their claim. People with a 'bias imagination' just speak whatever comes out of their head. I use scripture to support my arguments and "In this subforum the canon of the Bible is considered authoritative with respect to the historical consensus of the canon's content."

I referenced Judges 21 in my response to you.

So when someone says, 'virgins where raped' with no scriptural support with a known hate for religion, there's your bias imagination.

What is it when there is scriptural support, but you deny it anyway?

[JehovahsWitness]

It is merely an assumption that "take" is a euphemism for "rape".

Now, the Bible doesn't explicitly say that the Benjamites proposed on bended knee to their new blushing brides-to-be ....?

I am confused as to your point, none of the scriptures referred to mention or even suggest RAPE.



JUDGES CHAPTER 21: ARRANGED MARRIAGE OR STATE SANCTIONED RAPES?


The Levite's concubine (that sparked these wars) was certainly gang raped but the ensuring wars, the captives of Jabesh-gilead (mentioned above), and the girls from Shiloh were clearly taken as wives. They may have been unwilling wives, but historically girls did not generally get to decide who they married anyway. From there to suggest that arranged marriages start or even features rape is more a sad testimony on one's view of men than a reflection of reality.

The fact is most men don't want to rape their wives (even if they can) and even in ancient times treating ones wife with brutality is the best way to have her leave you or, in extreme cases be murdered in your sleep. More importantly the law mandated treating ones "neighbour" with kindness and respect ; neighbour here referring to anyone they had contact with. So neither legally for culturally does the above situation equates to mass rapes.

NOTE: Since the girls marriage were arranged by the Elders of Israel, the elders became their "surrogate fathers" and if they were mistreated they would have had added rights to appeal to the their authority.

In short, the elders of Israel in this exceptional circumstance, arranged marriages to ensure the continuation of one of their tribes. It is pure conjecture to conclude this resulted in mass rapings the very thing Israel had gone to WAR to prevent .

[2timothy316]

Me too, with anyone that makes a claim without any reference to support their claim. People with a 'bias imagination' just speak whatever comes out of their head. I use scripture to support my arguments and "In this subforum the canon of the Bible is considered authoritative with respect to the historical consensus of the canon's content."

I referenced Judges 21 in my response to you.

So when someone says, 'virgins where raped' with no scriptural support with a known hate for religion, there's your bias imagination.

What is it when there is scriptural support, but you deny it anyway?

Do you have that support? if so, show it and lets find out.
Judges 21 doesn't support rape. You'll need to read Judges 20 to get chapter 21 in context. The whole reason the Benjamin soldiers were even being considered for wives was because of a rape incident where almost the whole tribe was wiped out. Jabesh-gilead was attacked because they condoned the rape and death spoken of in chapter 20.

So your using Jg 21 as an example of rape is the exact opposite. Chapter 21 is the judgement on a tribe that allowed rape and murder to happen. It makes no sense that they even think about encouraging rape again that is why they are fighting is to remove rapist and murders and those that condone it from Israel.

[Difflugia]

I am confused as to your point, none of the scriptures referred to mention or even suggest RAPE.

I disagree. Taking virgin girls BY FORCE FOR THE PURPOSE OF MARRIAGE suggests a LACK OF CONSENT. SEX WITHOUT CONSENT is RAPE.

It's possible that the girls taken by force were nevertheless offered some opportunity to meaningfully withhold consent, but the text doesn't "suggest" that. What it "suggests" is RAPE.

They may have been unwilling wives, but historically girls did not generally get to decide who they married anyway.

I'm sure that you imagine a difference between "unwilling wife" and "rape victim," but I'm not sure how you would see that playing out in a practical sense.

From there to suggest that arranged marriages start or even features rape is more a sad testimony on one's view of men than a reflection of reality.

You've tried this equivocation and slippery slope before. "Taken by force" and "arranged marriage" aren't the same thing.

The fact is most men don't want to rape their wives (even if they can) and even in ancient times treating ones wife with brutality is the best way to have her leave you or, in extreme cases be murdered in your sleep.

Just how much agency do you imagine girls taken by force into "unwilling" marriage have?

More importantly the law mandated treating ones "neighbour" with kindness and respect ; neighbour here referring to anyone they had contact with.

Can you find this verse for me?

So neither legally for culturally does the above situation equates to mass rapes.

You keep saying things like this, but other than repeated assertion, you still haven't supported it with anything. Your argument is consistently the assertion that girls taken as war prizes became wives and men don't rape their wives. You seem to be conflating ancient and modern (or even just less barbarian) notions of "wife" based on nothing more than a romanticized appeal to a kind of common sense.

NOTE: Since the girls marriage were arranged by the Elders of Israel, the elders became their "surrogate fathers" and if they were mistreated they would have had added rights to appeal to the their authority.

In short, the elders of Israel in this exceptional circumstance, arranged marriages to ensure the continuation of one of their tribes.

The Elders you speak of just authorized the slaughter of their entire families with the express intent to give them willy-nilly to the Benjamite men. That's a pretty labored view of in loco parentis.

It is pure conjecture to conclude this resulted in mass rapings the very thing Israel had gone to WAR to prevent .

I think you mean PURE CONJECTURE!

[2timothy316]

I am confused as to your point, none of the scriptures referred to mention or even suggest RAPE.

I disagree. Taking virgin girls BY FORCE FOR THE PURPOSE OF MARRIAGE suggests a LACK OF CONSENT. SEX WITHOUT CONSENT is RAPE.

You can disagree as much as you but the fact is just because something is different from your culture doesn't mean it's rape.
In over a dozen countries today there are arranged marriages. Yet no one calls it rape.

BTW do you have Bible evidence that the women didn't consent to the marriages?

[Difflugia]

Judges 21 doesn't support rape. You'll need to read Judges 20 to get chapter 21 in context. The whole reason the Benjamin soldiers were even being considered for wives was because of a rape incident where almost the whole tribe was wiped out. Jabesh-gilead was attacked because they condoned the rape and death spoken of in chapter 20.

This is an odd reading, but even if we allow that everything you've said is true, it's still a non sequitur. Judges 21 is about taking girls by force with the express purpose of delivering them to men for sex. Whether one uses the word "wife" or not, it's the consent part that's missing. As an aside, an interesting feature of Hebrew is that "wife" and "woman" are usually the same word and which it means has to be determined by context. Judges 21 is just about giving women to the soldiers of Benjamin. We infer that they're wives (to the extent that it even means anything), but throughout Judges 21, the English words "woman" and "wife" both represent the same Hebrew word and were distinguished at the whim of the translators.

So your using Jg 21 as an example of rape is the exact opposite. Chapter 21 is the judgement on a tribe that allowed rape and murder to happen.

You're thinking of the story in modern terms again. To the extent that Judges 19 is about a rape, it's only important because the woman already belonged to a man. Judges 21 is a different circumstance. The girls were fair game because the other Israelites sacrificed their parents and brothers to Jehovah.

It makes no sense that they even think about encouraging rape again that is why they are fighting is to remove rapist and murders and those that condone it from Israel.

It sure doesn't, but that's what the text says.