God, Carnage, And Rape

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Miles
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God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #1

Post by Miles »

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In Numbers 31 we have god speaking to Moses:

"Numbers 31 . . .
1 "The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Get even with the Midianites for what they did to the Israelites. After that you will join your ancestors in death” 3 So Moses spoke to the people."

and sent 12,000 off to war. (The carnage takes place between verses 7 and 12.) After killing the Midianite solders the Israelite army took the Midianite women and children as prisoners, which was against Moses's instructions. When Moses found out about this he was. . .

14. . .very angry with the officers of the army, the commanders of the companies and battalions, who were returning from battle. 15 “Why did you let all the women live?” he asked them. 16 “Remember, they were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the incident that took place at Peor. The Lord’s community experienced a plague at that time. 17 So kill all the Midianite boys and every Midianite woman who has gone to bed with a man. 18 But save for yourselves every girl who has never gone to bed with a man. 19 “Everyone who killed a person or touched a dead body must stay outside the camp seven days. You and your prisoners of war must use the ritual water on the third and seventh days in order to take away your sin. 20 Do the same for all the clothes and everything made of leather, goats’ hair, or wood.”


That god found the foregoing acceptable is borne out by his lack of any comment about it, and by pressing on to further issues, such as how the spoils of the war were to be divvied up.

25 The Lord said to Moses, 26 “You, the priest Eleazar, and the heads of the families of the community need to count all the loot, including the people and animals you captured. 27 Divide the loot between the soldiers who served in the war and the rest of the community. 28 Collect a tax for the Lord. From the soldiers who served in the war collect one out of every 500 things. This includes people, cattle, donkeys, sheep, and goats.


My concern here is verse 18 where Moses tells the conquering soldiers "18 But save for yourselves every girl who has never gone to bed with a man."

In effect, god is saying:"You have my permission to rape them." I say this because there is no mention or even implication that the soldiers need first marry the girls, or even marry them at all. Plus a women's consent is never mentioned. Like it or not, a soldier could take what ever virgin girl he desired, to which the girl is never given the option to decline. Pretty much a matter of rape as I see it.


The verse from other translations.

VOICE
As for the virgins, you can take them, as you desire.

MEV
But keep alive for yourselves all the young girls who have not known a man by lying with him.

GW
But save for yourselves every girl who has never gone to bed with a man.

CJB
But the young girls who have never slept with a man, keep alive for yourselves.

GNV
But all the women-children that have not known carnal copulation, keep alive for yourselves.

NKJV
But keep alive for yourselves all the young girls who have not known a man intimately.

ISV
You are to allow the young women who haven’t yet had sexual relations with a man to live for yourselves.”


So, hasn't god aided and perhaps even abetted rape? If not, hasn't he at least condoned it? I say, he most certainly has.


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Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

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Post by 1213 »

Miles wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:57 pm ...
So, hasn't god aided and perhaps even abetted rape? If not, hasn't he at least condoned it? I say, he most certainly has.
By what the Bible tells, people should be righteous. I don’t think righteous person wants to rape anyone. And I don’t think the idea would even come to righteous mind. That is why I think it was not necessary to say in that place.

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Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

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Post by Miles »

1213 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:26 am
Miles wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:57 pm ...
So, hasn't god aided and perhaps even abetted rape? If not, hasn't he at least condoned it? I say, he most certainly has.
By what the Bible tells, people should be righteous. I don’t think righteous person wants to rape anyone. And I don’t think the idea would even come to righteous mind. That is why I think it was not necessary to say in that place.
Not quite following you, but I fail to see what righteousness has to do with god giving an OK to Israelite soldiers to take virgin girls of a conquered enemy for themselves and raping them. I'm assuming very few, if any, of the girls wanted to have sex with the soldiers.


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Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

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Post by 2timothy316 »

Miles wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:57 pm
My concern here is verse 18 where Moses tells the conquering soldiers "18 But save for yourselves every girl who has never gone to bed with a man."

In effect, god is saying:"You have my permission to rape them." I say this because there is no mention or even implication that the soldiers need first marry the girls, or even marry them at all. Plus a women's consent is never mentioned. Like it or not, a soldier could take what ever virgin girl he desired, to which the girl is never given the option to decline. Pretty much a matter of rape as I see it.
Sex was not allowed under the law during military campaigns for Israel. So, it is not 'as you see it'.
1Sa 21:5; 2Sa 11:6-11.

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Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #5

Post by Tcg »

2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:43 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:57 pm
My concern here is verse 18 where Moses tells the conquering soldiers "18 But save for yourselves every girl who has never gone to bed with a man."

In effect, god is saying:"You have my permission to rape them." I say this because there is no mention or even implication that the soldiers need first marry the girls, or even marry them at all. Plus a women's consent is never mentioned. Like it or not, a soldier could take what ever virgin girl he desired, to which the girl is never given the option to decline. Pretty much a matter of rape as I see it.
Sex was not allowed under the law during military campaigns for Israel. So, it is not 'as you see it'.
1Sa 21:5; 2Sa 11:6-11.
Even if that is true and even if it were enforced, it doesn't change what would have happened to these virgins after the campaigns. We also know from the story of David and Bathsheba that law was broken and nothing was done about it, at least not to the lawbreaker.


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Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #6

Post by 2timothy316 »

Tcg wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:53 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:43 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:57 pm
My concern here is verse 18 where Moses tells the conquering soldiers "18 But save for yourselves every girl who has never gone to bed with a man."

In effect, god is saying:"You have my permission to rape them." I say this because there is no mention or even implication that the soldiers need first marry the girls, or even marry them at all. Plus a women's consent is never mentioned. Like it or not, a soldier could take what ever virgin girl he desired, to which the girl is never given the option to decline. Pretty much a matter of rape as I see it.
Sex was not allowed under the law during military campaigns for Israel. So, it is not 'as you see it'.
1Sa 21:5; 2Sa 11:6-11.
Even if that is true and even if it were enforced, it doesn't change what would have happened to these virgins after the campaigns. We also know from the story of David and Bathsheba that law was broken and nothing was done about it, at least not to the lawbreaker.


Tcg
"Nothing was done about it" isn't true.
"Why did you despise the word of Jehovah by doing what is bad in his eyes? You struck down U·riʹah the Hitʹtite with the sword! Then you took his wife as your wife after you killed him by the sword of the Amʹmon·ites. Now a sword will never depart from your own house, because you despised me by taking the wife of U·riʹah the Hitʹtite as your wife.’ This is what Jehovah says: ‘Here I am bringing against you calamity from within your own house; and before your own eyes, I will take your wives and give them to another man, and he will lie down with your wives in broad daylight. Although you acted in secret, I will do this in front of all Israel and in broad daylight.’” - 2 Samuel 12:9-12

What should have happened with the spared virgins? Should they have been left in the wilderness? Perhaps you think that an uber will swing by and take them somewhere else? Perhaps they should be given to another nation where they would be forced into prostitution or burned alive to Molech.

Some might have been taken as wives but rape is not something allowed. If they did, the offender would have been killed. De 22:23-27.
The tribe of Benjamin was nearly wiped out because they didn't seek justice in a rape case. Jg chaps 19, 20.

So if Israel was following God's commandments then rape wasn't happening. So saying God condones rape is false and a product of a bias imagination.

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Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #7

Post by Miles »

2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:43 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:57 pm
My concern here is verse 18 where Moses tells the conquering soldiers "18 But save for yourselves every girl who has never gone to bed with a man."

In effect, god is saying:"You have my permission to rape them." I say this because there is no mention or even implication that the soldiers need first marry the girls, or even marry them at all. Plus a women's consent is never mentioned. Like it or not, a soldier could take what ever virgin girl he desired, to which the girl is never given the option to decline. Pretty much a matter of rape as I see it.
Sex was not allowed under the law during military campaigns for Israel. So, it is not 'as you see it'.
1Sa 21:5; 2Sa 11:6-11.
Well the "campaign" described in Numbers 3 was over with. And, as Tcg rightly pointed out. "it doesn't change what would have happened to these virgins after the campaigns."

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Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #8

Post by 2timothy316 »

Miles wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 3:39 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:43 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:57 pm
My concern here is verse 18 where Moses tells the conquering soldiers "18 But save for yourselves every girl who has never gone to bed with a man."

In effect, god is saying:"You have my permission to rape them." I say this because there is no mention or even implication that the soldiers need first marry the girls, or even marry them at all. Plus a women's consent is never mentioned. Like it or not, a soldier could take what ever virgin girl he desired, to which the girl is never given the option to decline. Pretty much a matter of rape as I see it.
Sex was not allowed under the law during military campaigns for Israel. So, it is not 'as you see it'.
1Sa 21:5; 2Sa 11:6-11.
Well the "campaign" described in Numbers 3 was over with. And, as Tcg rightly pointed out. "it doesn't change what would have happened to these virgins after the campaigns."

.
Change what? You have not shown proof of rape after the campaign. You've shared with us your imagination but you can imagine all you want but just because you imagine it doesn't mean that's what happened. As I have already posted, rape wasn't God condoned and those that followed God's laws didn't do it. Those that did or even allowed it, suffered greatly. De 22:23-27. Jg chaps 19, 20.

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Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #9

Post by Difflugia »

2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:59 pmWhat should have happened with the spared virgins? Should they have been left in the wilderness?
That's your question? Not, "Why were their husbands, brothers, and sons slaughtered in the first place?"
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:59 pmSome might have been taken as wives but rape is not something allowed. If they did, the offender would have been killed. De 22:23-27.
That's not about rape, but about having sex with another man's wife. If the woman or girl isn't married or betrothed, then he just has to marry her or pay her father off.
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:59 pmThe tribe of Benjamin was nearly wiped out because they didn't seek justice in a rape case. Jg chaps 19, 20.
That wasn't a "rape case," but about taking advantage of strangers:
And the children of Israel said, "Tell us, how was this wickedness brought to pass?"

And the Levite, the husband of the woman that was murdered, answered and said, "I came into Gibeah that belongs to Benjamin, I and my concubine, to lodge. And the men of Gibeah rose against me, and beset the house round about me by night; me they thought to have slain, and my concubine they forced, and she is dead. And I took my concubine, and cut her in pieces, and sent her throughout all the country of the inheritance of Israel; for they have committed lewdness and folly in Israel."
If you think that the story is a cautionary tale against rape, then you apparently didn't read all the way to the end. Judges 21 describes how the Benjamites replaced the women slaughtered by the other Israelites by making an excuse to kill everyone in an Israelite town except for virgin girls, then giving the girls to the Benjamite soldiers that were left. There still weren't enough to go around, so the Benjamites that still didn't have "wives" hid out during a festival and carried off dancing girls by force.
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:59 pmSo if Israel was following God's commandments then rape wasn't happening.
Just taking young girls by force after slaughtering their families, which is apparently different and somehow involves consent?
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:59 pmSo saying God condones rape is false and a product of a bias imagination.
I think I know where the "bias imagination" is.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

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Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #10

Post by JehovahsWitness »

It is merely an assumption that "take" is a euphemism for "rape".



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