God, Carnage, And Rape

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Miles
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God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #1

Post by Miles »

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In Numbers 31 we have god speaking to Moses:

"Numbers 31 . . .
1 "The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Get even with the Midianites for what they did to the Israelites. After that you will join your ancestors in death” 3 So Moses spoke to the people."

and sent 12,000 off to war. (The carnage takes place between verses 7 and 12.) After killing the Midianite solders the Israelite army took the Midianite women and children as prisoners, which was against Moses's instructions. When Moses found out about this he was. . .

14. . .very angry with the officers of the army, the commanders of the companies and battalions, who were returning from battle. 15 “Why did you let all the women live?” he asked them. 16 “Remember, they were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the incident that took place at Peor. The Lord’s community experienced a plague at that time. 17 So kill all the Midianite boys and every Midianite woman who has gone to bed with a man. 18 But save for yourselves every girl who has never gone to bed with a man. 19 “Everyone who killed a person or touched a dead body must stay outside the camp seven days. You and your prisoners of war must use the ritual water on the third and seventh days in order to take away your sin. 20 Do the same for all the clothes and everything made of leather, goats’ hair, or wood.”


That god found the foregoing acceptable is borne out by his lack of any comment about it, and by pressing on to further issues, such as how the spoils of the war were to be divvied up.

25 The Lord said to Moses, 26 “You, the priest Eleazar, and the heads of the families of the community need to count all the loot, including the people and animals you captured. 27 Divide the loot between the soldiers who served in the war and the rest of the community. 28 Collect a tax for the Lord. From the soldiers who served in the war collect one out of every 500 things. This includes people, cattle, donkeys, sheep, and goats.


My concern here is verse 18 where Moses tells the conquering soldiers "18 But save for yourselves every girl who has never gone to bed with a man."

In effect, god is saying:"You have my permission to rape them." I say this because there is no mention or even implication that the soldiers need first marry the girls, or even marry them at all. Plus a women's consent is never mentioned. Like it or not, a soldier could take what ever virgin girl he desired, to which the girl is never given the option to decline. Pretty much a matter of rape as I see it.


The verse from other translations.

VOICE
As for the virgins, you can take them, as you desire.

MEV
But keep alive for yourselves all the young girls who have not known a man by lying with him.

GW
But save for yourselves every girl who has never gone to bed with a man.

CJB
But the young girls who have never slept with a man, keep alive for yourselves.

GNV
But all the women-children that have not known carnal copulation, keep alive for yourselves.

NKJV
But keep alive for yourselves all the young girls who have not known a man intimately.

ISV
You are to allow the young women who haven’t yet had sexual relations with a man to live for yourselves.”


So, hasn't god aided and perhaps even abetted rape? If not, hasn't he at least condoned it? I say, he most certainly has.


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Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #51

Post by Tcg »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 12:12 pm
Difflugia wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 11:59 am
That's not affirming the consequent.
You have committed a logical fallacy. Rape is sex without consent not marriage without consent.
What is the difference? Are you suggesting these blood thirsty warriors "married" these virgins and didn't intend to have sex with them?


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Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #52

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Difflugia wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 11:16 am
You keep saying things like this, but other than repeated assertion, you still haven't supported it with anything.

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Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #53

Post by 2timothy316 »

Tcg wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 12:11 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 12:06 pm
Difflugia wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 12:03 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 11:40 amBecause back then, women were 'given' as wives. It was the culture and just because you don't agree with that culture doesn't make it rape.
That's right. The sex without consent is what makes it rape.
Yet if the women consented to the marriage then it is not rape. Did all women consent to the marriage? I don't know. But in your mind you think all women refused but the Bible doesn't say they that. Again, bias imagination.
Sure, the blood thirsty warriors murdered their families and then the virgins decided, hey let's marry those dude who slaughtered my family. I guess it would resolve mother in law issues.


Tcg
So I'm guessing you think those that condone rape should be let off the hook. Because the ones you're calling 'bloodthristy' didn't want people that condone rape and murder off the hook. And then you think that they turn around and do to others exactly what they were trying to remove from Israel. Weren't you the one that was complaining about David, you think got off with nothing done to him? For you nothing can be right to when it comes to the Bible eh? There's that biased imagination again.

Everyone is welcome to their opinion, even if it is biased and prejudiced.

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Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #54

Post by 1213 »

Miles wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 1:50 pm Not quite following you, but I fail to see what righteousness has to do with god giving an OK to Israelite soldiers to take virgin girls of a conquered enemy for themselves and raping them. I'm assuming very few, if any, of the girls wanted to have sex with the soldiers.
And I believe, if the people were righteous, they didn’t rape anyone. They didn’t need to force anyone to have sex with them. If they were not righteous, then I don’t think God would have been on their side.

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Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #55

Post by Miles »

1213 wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:36 pm
Miles wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 1:50 pm Not quite following you, but I fail to see what righteousness has to do with god giving an OK to Israelite soldiers to take virgin girls of a conquered enemy for themselves and raping them. I'm assuming very few, if any, of the girls wanted to have sex with the soldiers.
And I believe, if the people were righteous, they didn’t rape anyone.
That's one huge "if." But is that what you truly believe? That of the 12,000 men who were sent to war only the righteous survived and came back to take virgin girls as they desired?

They didn’t need to force anyone to have sex with them.
So why do you think these virgin girls would be open to having sexual intercourse with complete strangers who were their enemy? Given the chance, don't you think most girls would say "No"? I certainly think so, and would hope any daughter of mine caught in a similar circumstance would do the same.

If they were not righteous, then I don’t think God would have been on their side.
And maybe they weren't and god wasn't.


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Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #56

Post by 1213 »

Miles wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 4:31 pm ...
So why do you think these virgin girls would be open to having sexual intercourse with complete strangers who were their enemy? Given the chance, don't you think most girls would say "No"? ...
If they see that the man is good and righteous, and those that were killed were evil, they could be willing.

And on the other hand, if we consider how admired some prisoners are by women, I think it is not far-fetched idea that they would have been ok with it, even if they would not be the nicest men. Women very often seem to desire strong men that and don’t care much of if the man has done bad things.

But, in any case, I think it is probably best not to imagine too much. It is possible that the men were actually good and didn’t rape, but we don’t know that.

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Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #57

Post by Purple Knight »

Miles wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:57 pmSo, hasn't god aided and perhaps even abetted rape? If not, hasn't he at least condoned it?
Rape is a violation of rights. The problem isn't the physical act here, but who it is done to and what that counts as. If you do it to a rock obviously no harm done. And if you do it to an animal, no harm done, or at least, no rights violated.

https://mises.org/library/rights-animals
But the fundamental flaw in the theory of animal rights is more basic and far-reaching.1 For the assertion of human rights is not properly a simple emotive one; individuals possess rights not because we "feel" that they should, but because of a rational inquiry into the nature of man and the universe. In short, man has rights because they are natural rights. They are grounded in the nature of man
...
Thus, while natural rights, as we have been emphasizing, are absolute, there is one sense in which they are relative: they are relative to the species man. A rights-ethic for mankind is precisely that: for all men, regardless of race, creed, color, or sex, but for the species man alone. The Biblical story was insightful to the effect that man was "given" — or, in natural law, we may say "has" — dominion over all the species of the earth. Natural law is necessarily species-bound.


Does this imply you can rape an animal? You bet. No rights = no rights violated. Some would find this value system abhorrent but I am forced to admit it is a consistent one.

The disagreement here, in this topic, isn't with the concept of rape, but the extent of rights: Does the concept of rights extend to the object of the forced sex act? Well the Old Testament is pretty clear (and I would argue the NT doesn't contradict it). Full rights are for Jews.

(JW has made a case that the Hebrew law protects slaves and captives against rape and I have read it but this post proceeds as if there are at least some permissions to hurt others that would not exist in modern society. And I do think the position a female captive is in, to be beaten even just within the limits of Hebrew law if the master wishes, is essentially permissive of rape. The master may have had to marry her first, but if he wants sex he's just going to beat her senseless otherwise until she "consents" to marry him.)

This is not an abhorrent position, especially for a People who have been under near-constant attack for all of history. The Past was pretty brutal and extending rights to other tribes was definitely not the way to go. It's also not an abhorrent position because once you attach rights to lofty and nebulous things such as, "rational inquiry into the nature of Man and the universe" (which we do, or animals would probably have full rights) where you draw the line exactly becomes arbitrary.

I challenge anyone to tell me a good moral reason a Jew should not kill/rape an Amalekite or any enemy, where such a reason does not extend to why a modern day person shouldn't kill an animal.

In other words, it's not about rape. This topic is not about rape. It's about the line you draw - who has rights, who doesn't - and where you place it. Make a case for yours.
Last edited by Purple Knight on Fri Apr 01, 2022 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #58

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Purple Knight wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 2:17 pm This topic is not about rape.
Miles wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:57 pm
So, hasn't god aided and perhaps even abetted rape? If not, hasn't he at least condoned it?
I think the OP is clear, it is about whether the cited passages condone or support RAPE, not whether rape is justifiable under some circumstances.



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Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #59

Post by Purple Knight »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 2:24 pmI think the OP is clear, it is about whether the cited passages condone or support RAPE, not whether rape is justifiable under some circumstances.
Just like your post on genocide, it isn't genocide if God does it (admittedly, because genocide is defined this way - as a crime) and it isn't rape if nobody's rights are violated. You can't rape a stone.

The OP seems to be about rape (and also carnage), but this may be a misdirection (not saying intentional) from the real issue, which is the scope of rights.

I just pointed out that everyone's scope of rights is different, some are going to be abhorrent to others, and if we want to have a real discussion, what really needs to be defended is placing the line precisely so as to include all human beings and nothing else. Murray Rothbard didn't defend his line, though that's exactly what it was (humans and nobody else); he just waxed poetic about the nature of man and the universe.

Even if Miles thinks permission for rape is given and that doesn't happen to be the case (though I tend to agree with him), the whole OP is asking me to assume that any rights line but the precise one that encompasses humans and nothing else is abhorrent and I refuse to make that assumption.

The generally accepted least abhorrent line we have now, is actually graduated - full rights for some, partial rights for others, such as animals, depending on their kind. This is more similar to the ancient Hebrew line than most would like to believe.

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Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #60

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Purple Knight wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 2:17 pm This topic is not about rape.
Purple Knight wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 2:36 pm The OP seems to be about rape...
Yes it does seem that way
Purple Knight wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 2:36 pm You can't rape a stone.



That is true.




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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
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