God, Carnage, And Rape

Exploring the details of Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Miles
Savant
Posts: 5179
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:19 pm
Has thanked: 434 times
Been thanked: 1614 times

God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #1

Post by Miles »

.


In Numbers 31 we have god speaking to Moses:

"Numbers 31 . . .
1 "The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Get even with the Midianites for what they did to the Israelites. After that you will join your ancestors in death” 3 So Moses spoke to the people."

and sent 12,000 off to war. (The carnage takes place between verses 7 and 12.) After killing the Midianite solders the Israelite army took the Midianite women and children as prisoners, which was against Moses's instructions. When Moses found out about this he was. . .

14. . .very angry with the officers of the army, the commanders of the companies and battalions, who were returning from battle. 15 “Why did you let all the women live?” he asked them. 16 “Remember, they were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the incident that took place at Peor. The Lord’s community experienced a plague at that time. 17 So kill all the Midianite boys and every Midianite woman who has gone to bed with a man. 18 But save for yourselves every girl who has never gone to bed with a man. 19 “Everyone who killed a person or touched a dead body must stay outside the camp seven days. You and your prisoners of war must use the ritual water on the third and seventh days in order to take away your sin. 20 Do the same for all the clothes and everything made of leather, goats’ hair, or wood.”


That god found the foregoing acceptable is borne out by his lack of any comment about it, and by pressing on to further issues, such as how the spoils of the war were to be divvied up.

25 The Lord said to Moses, 26 “You, the priest Eleazar, and the heads of the families of the community need to count all the loot, including the people and animals you captured. 27 Divide the loot between the soldiers who served in the war and the rest of the community. 28 Collect a tax for the Lord. From the soldiers who served in the war collect one out of every 500 things. This includes people, cattle, donkeys, sheep, and goats.


My concern here is verse 18 where Moses tells the conquering soldiers "18 But save for yourselves every girl who has never gone to bed with a man."

In effect, god is saying:"You have my permission to rape them." I say this because there is no mention or even implication that the soldiers need first marry the girls, or even marry them at all. Plus a women's consent is never mentioned. Like it or not, a soldier could take what ever virgin girl he desired, to which the girl is never given the option to decline. Pretty much a matter of rape as I see it.


The verse from other translations.

VOICE
As for the virgins, you can take them, as you desire.

MEV
But keep alive for yourselves all the young girls who have not known a man by lying with him.

GW
But save for yourselves every girl who has never gone to bed with a man.

CJB
But the young girls who have never slept with a man, keep alive for yourselves.

GNV
But all the women-children that have not known carnal copulation, keep alive for yourselves.

NKJV
But keep alive for yourselves all the young girls who have not known a man intimately.

ISV
You are to allow the young women who haven’t yet had sexual relations with a man to live for yourselves.”


So, hasn't god aided and perhaps even abetted rape? If not, hasn't he at least condoned it? I say, he most certainly has.


.

2timothy316
Under Probation
Posts: 4161
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:51 am
Has thanked: 175 times
Been thanked: 457 times

Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #41

Post by 2timothy316 »

Difflugia wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 11:31 am
2timothy316 wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 10:28 amIt makes no sense that they even think about encouraging rape again that is why they are fighting is to remove rapist and murders and those that condone it from Israel.
It sure doesn't, but that's what the text says.
More like what you want it to say but it doesn't.

2timothy316
Under Probation
Posts: 4161
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:51 am
Has thanked: 175 times
Been thanked: 457 times

Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #42

Post by 2timothy316 »

Difflugia wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 11:31 am
2timothy316 wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 10:28 amSo your using Jg 21 as an example of rape is the exact opposite. Chapter 21 is the judgement on a tribe that allowed rape and murder to happen.
You're thinking of the story in modern terms again. To the extent that Judges 19 is about a rape, it's only important because the woman already belonged to a man. Judges 21 is a different circumstance. The girls were fair game because the other Israelites sacrificed their parents and brothers to Jehovah.
I don't read the words 'fair game' in the Bible or the word sacrificed. You sure are liberal with your paraphrasing.

Do you have evidence that the virgins were doing something against their consent? Because back then, women were 'given' as wives. It was the culture and just because you don't agree with that culture doesn't make it rape. So who really is thinking in modern times?

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21074
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #43

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Difflugia wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 11:16 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 10:17 amI am confused as to your point, none of the scriptures referred to mention or even suggest RAPE.
I disagree. Taking virgin girls BY FORCE FOR THE PURPOSE OF MARRIAGE suggests a LACK OF CONSENT. SEX WITHOUT CONSENT is RAPE.

Forced marriage negates consent
Rape negates consent
Therefore ...forced marriage is rape.
Fallacy of the consequent, aka ...
Image







RELATED POSTS
What is "argumentum ad populum"?
viewtopic.php?p=1048524#p1048524

What is Ad hominem?
viewtopic.php?p=1068290#p1068290

What is circular reasoning [begging the question]?
viewtopic.php?p=1027604#p1027604

What is the fallacy of equivocation [first & last] ?
viewtopic.php?p=1020274#p1020274

What is the fallacy of special pleading ?
viewtopic.php?p=1072425#p1072425

What is the fallacy of the consequent?
viewtopic.php?p=1073114#p1073114

What is the fallacy of "false equivalence"?
viewtopic.php?p=1074577#p1074577

What is the fallacy of composition [true christian]?
viewtopic.php?p=1026784#p1026784
To learn more please go to other posts related to...

LOGIC , FALLACIES and ... EVIDENCE
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Apr 13, 2022 12:52 pm, edited 4 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
Difflugia
Prodigy
Posts: 3017
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:25 am
Location: Michigan
Has thanked: 3247 times
Been thanked: 1997 times

Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #44

Post by Difflugia »

2timothy316 wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 11:27 amYou can disagree as much as you but the fact is just because something is different from your culture doesn't mean it's rape.
That's right. Sex without consent is what means it's rape.
2timothy316 wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 11:27 amIn over a dozen countries today there are arranged marriages. Yet no one calls it rape.
They do when the "arrangement" isn't consensual.
2timothy316 wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 11:27 amBTW do you have Bible evidence that the women didn't consent to the marriages?
Yes. The girls were taken by force in two batches. The first, we've been discussing. The girls' families were killed and the girls themselves were kept alive for the express purpose of giving them to the soldiers of Benjamin (Judges 21:8-12). The second group is made up of the dancing girls from Shiloh. The soldiers at least didn't sacrifice their parents first, but they still siezed them by force (21:20-21). The word is the same one used in Psalm 10:9 and expressly likened to a lion ambushing its prey. I suppose that it's possible that "the orphaned girls consented" or "the ambushed girls consented" is implied, but the scriptural evidence is against that being likely.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

2timothy316
Under Probation
Posts: 4161
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:51 am
Has thanked: 175 times
Been thanked: 457 times

Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #45

Post by 2timothy316 »

Difflugia wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 11:31 am To the extent that Judges 19 is about a rape, it's only important because the woman already belonged to a man.
Any woman that is forced into sex is viewed as a violation. Given to a man or not. Amnon raped his half sister who was a virgin and not given to anyone and this was viewed as a violation of the woman. 2Sa 13:1-19. Later, Absalom had Amnon killed. (2Sa 13:20-29)

User avatar
Difflugia
Prodigy
Posts: 3017
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:25 am
Location: Michigan
Has thanked: 3247 times
Been thanked: 1997 times

Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #46

Post by Difflugia »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 11:48 amForced marriage negates consent
That's right.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 11:48 amRape negates consent
It's the other way around. Lack of consent means rape.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 11:48 amTherefore ...forced marriage equals rape.
If the marriage is consented to, it's not forced, so yes.

That's not affirming the consequent.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

User avatar
Difflugia
Prodigy
Posts: 3017
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:25 am
Location: Michigan
Has thanked: 3247 times
Been thanked: 1997 times

Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #47

Post by Difflugia »

2timothy316 wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 11:40 amBecause back then, women were 'given' as wives. It was the culture and just because you don't agree with that culture doesn't make it rape.
That's right. The sex without consent is what makes it rape.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

2timothy316
Under Probation
Posts: 4161
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:51 am
Has thanked: 175 times
Been thanked: 457 times

Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #48

Post by 2timothy316 »

Difflugia wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 12:03 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 11:40 amBecause back then, women were 'given' as wives. It was the culture and just because you don't agree with that culture doesn't make it rape.
That's right. The sex without consent is what makes it rape.
Yet if the women consented to the marriage then it is not rape. Did all women consent to the marriage? I don't know. But in your mind you think all women refused but the Bible doesn't say that the marriages were against their will. Again, bias imagination. To have a family was an honor back in those days. There is a lot more to consider than just that of your bias imagination based on modern times.

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 8487
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 2141 times
Been thanked: 2293 times

Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #49

Post by Tcg »

2timothy316 wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 12:06 pm
Difflugia wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 12:03 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 11:40 amBecause back then, women were 'given' as wives. It was the culture and just because you don't agree with that culture doesn't make it rape.
That's right. The sex without consent is what makes it rape.
Yet if the women consented to the marriage then it is not rape. Did all women consent to the marriage? I don't know. But in your mind you think all women refused but the Bible doesn't say they that. Again, bias imagination.
Sure, the blood thirsty warriors murdered their families and then the virgins decided, hey let's marry those dude who slaughtered my family. I guess it would resolve mother in law issues.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21074
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #50

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Difflugia wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 11:59 am
That's not affirming the consequent.

You have committed a logical fallacy. Rape is sex without consent not marriage without consent.

Regarding the biblical accounts all we know for sure is that the girls are reported to have not initiated the circumstances that lead to their marriage. Whether they eventually consented to the marriage and , once married accepted their lot in life and consented to having sex with their husbands, we cannot say for sure. It is reasonable to assume however, since most men are not rapists and would find the act abhorent, that some kind of mutual agreement was obtained.
Difflugia wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 11:54 am
2timothy316 wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 11:27 amBTW do you have Bible evidence that the women didn't consent to the marriages?
Yes. The girls were taken by force in two batches.
But it is a false dichotmy to conclude that just because they were taken physically from their homes they were RAPED. The bible doesnt say they were taken to be raped, it indicates they were taken to be married.

The girls of Jabesh-gilead had no living male relatives. If, like war captives, they were very young they would have at probably lived in the family home until puberty. We do not know whether in the interim they decided that marriage being their only real option was one they could live with and subsequently consented or not. The women of SHILOH had their fathers and brothers that negotiated their marriages. Again, we don't know if the men persuaded the girls to consent, if they did it wouldn't have been without biblical precedent.

In short scripture doesnt give the details. The events of Jugdes chapter 21 essentially amounts to two groups of arranged marriages. We can but speculate on the attitude the girls eventually had. But one thing is for sure, just because a girl does not initiate her own marriage (or is forced to marry against her wishes) does not mean the only natural consequence is rape.


RELATED POSTS
What is "argumentum ad populum"?
viewtopic.php?p=1048524#p1048524

What is circular reasoning [begging the question]?
url=viewtopic.php?p=1027604#p1027604

What is the fallacy of equivocation [first & last] ?
viewtopic.php?p=1020274#p1020274

What is an of ah hoc fallacy [contradictions] ?
viewtopic.php?p=1058581#p1058581

What is the fallacy of composition [true christian]?
viewtopic.php?p=1026784#p1026784

What is the fallacy of the consequent?
To learn more please go to other posts related to...

LOGIC , FALLACIES and ... EVIDENCE and ...
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Thu Mar 31, 2022 12:53 pm, edited 4 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

Post Reply