God, Carnage, And Rape

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God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #1

Post by Miles »

.


In Numbers 31 we have god speaking to Moses:

"Numbers 31 . . .
1 "The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Get even with the Midianites for what they did to the Israelites. After that you will join your ancestors in death” 3 So Moses spoke to the people."

and sent 12,000 off to war. (The carnage takes place between verses 7 and 12.) After killing the Midianite solders the Israelite army took the Midianite women and children as prisoners, which was against Moses's instructions. When Moses found out about this he was. . .

14. . .very angry with the officers of the army, the commanders of the companies and battalions, who were returning from battle. 15 “Why did you let all the women live?” he asked them. 16 “Remember, they were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the incident that took place at Peor. The Lord’s community experienced a plague at that time. 17 So kill all the Midianite boys and every Midianite woman who has gone to bed with a man. 18 But save for yourselves every girl who has never gone to bed with a man. 19 “Everyone who killed a person or touched a dead body must stay outside the camp seven days. You and your prisoners of war must use the ritual water on the third and seventh days in order to take away your sin. 20 Do the same for all the clothes and everything made of leather, goats’ hair, or wood.”


That god found the foregoing acceptable is borne out by his lack of any comment about it, and by pressing on to further issues, such as how the spoils of the war were to be divvied up.

25 The Lord said to Moses, 26 “You, the priest Eleazar, and the heads of the families of the community need to count all the loot, including the people and animals you captured. 27 Divide the loot between the soldiers who served in the war and the rest of the community. 28 Collect a tax for the Lord. From the soldiers who served in the war collect one out of every 500 things. This includes people, cattle, donkeys, sheep, and goats.


My concern here is verse 18 where Moses tells the conquering soldiers "18 But save for yourselves every girl who has never gone to bed with a man."

In effect, god is saying:"You have my permission to rape them." I say this because there is no mention or even implication that the soldiers need first marry the girls, or even marry them at all. Plus a women's consent is never mentioned. Like it or not, a soldier could take what ever virgin girl he desired, to which the girl is never given the option to decline. Pretty much a matter of rape as I see it.


The verse from other translations.

VOICE
As for the virgins, you can take them, as you desire.

MEV
But keep alive for yourselves all the young girls who have not known a man by lying with him.

GW
But save for yourselves every girl who has never gone to bed with a man.

CJB
But the young girls who have never slept with a man, keep alive for yourselves.

GNV
But all the women-children that have not known carnal copulation, keep alive for yourselves.

NKJV
But keep alive for yourselves all the young girls who have not known a man intimately.

ISV
You are to allow the young women who haven’t yet had sexual relations with a man to live for yourselves.”


So, hasn't god aided and perhaps even abetted rape? If not, hasn't he at least condoned it? I say, he most certainly has.


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Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #11

Post by Tcg »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 6:20 pm It is merely an assumption that "take" is a euphemism for "rape".
Right. Obviously, those bloodthirsty warriors took the virgins to start a girl scout troop.


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Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #12

Post by Miles »

2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 3:43 pm
Miles wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 3:39 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:43 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:57 pm
My concern here is verse 18 where Moses tells the conquering soldiers "18 But save for yourselves every girl who has never gone to bed with a man."

In effect, god is saying:"You have my permission to rape them." I say this because there is no mention or even implication that the soldiers need first marry the girls, or even marry them at all. Plus a women's consent is never mentioned. Like it or not, a soldier could take what ever virgin girl he desired, to which the girl is never given the option to decline. Pretty much a matter of rape as I see it.
Sex was not allowed under the law during military campaigns for Israel. So, it is not 'as you see it'.
1Sa 21:5; 2Sa 11:6-11.
Well the "campaign" described in Numbers 3 was over with. And, as Tcg rightly pointed out. "it doesn't change what would have happened to these virgins after the campaigns."

.
Change what?
". . . what would have happened to these virgins after the campaigns."


You have not shown proof of rape after the campaign.
I don't believe I need to. What else should one infer from Moses's decree that specifically focuses on virginity if the taking of virgin girls isn't about sex? ? He's saying, don't bother with non-virigin widows, but concentrate on young girls who are still virgins. WHY? Because virgin girls are almost always more desirable then older "used" widows. Something Moses was almost assuredly aware of and saw as a more fitting reward for winning the battle. Who wants an "old" wife?

Now, after a war do you think young, battle weary soldiers are thinking more about getting married and settling down or having sex with the virgin girl they were just "given"? My bet is the later. And here's Moses telling them just how to go about it: "But the young girls who have never slept with a man, keep alive for yourselves." "Keep alive for yourselves" NOT marry for yourselves, but keep alive, and for what reason do you think? Could it be for sex? Bingo!. Now here's the sad kicker; how many of these virgin girls happily submitted to their enemy's sexual needs? How many wanted to have sex with these strangers? I don't know either, but it's highly doubtful it was more than a handful, and with the exception of this handful of willing partners all the rest were raped. They didn't want to have sex, but they had no say in the matter except to unwillingly submit to it: Rape.


.

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Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #13

Post by Tcg »

Miles wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 7:12 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 3:43 pm
Miles wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 3:39 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:43 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:57 pm
My concern here is verse 18 where Moses tells the conquering soldiers "18 But save for yourselves every girl who has never gone to bed with a man."

In effect, god is saying:"You have my permission to rape them." I say this because there is no mention or even implication that the soldiers need first marry the girls, or even marry them at all. Plus a women's consent is never mentioned. Like it or not, a soldier could take what ever virgin girl he desired, to which the girl is never given the option to decline. Pretty much a matter of rape as I see it.
Sex was not allowed under the law during military campaigns for Israel. So, it is not 'as you see it'.
1Sa 21:5; 2Sa 11:6-11.
Well the "campaign" described in Numbers 3 was over with. And, as Tcg rightly pointed out. "it doesn't change what would have happened to these virgins after the campaigns."

.
Change what?
". . . what would have happened to these virgins after the campaigns."


You have not shown proof of rape after the campaign.
I don't need to. What else should one infer from Moses's decree that specifically focuses on virginity if the taking of virgin girls isn't about sex? ? He's saying, don't bother with non-virigin widows, but concentrate on young girls who are still virgins. WHY? Because virgin girls are almost always more desirable then older "used" widows. Something Moses was almost assuredly aware of and saw as a more fitting reward for winning the battle. Who wants an "old" wife?

Now, after a war do you think young, battle weary soldiers are thinking more about getting married and settling down or having sex with the virgin girl they were just "given"? My bet is the later. And here's Moses telling them just how to go about it: "But the young girls who have never slept with a man, keep alive for yourselves." "Keep alive for yourselves" NOT marry for yourselves, but keep alive, and for what reason do you think? Could it be for sex? Bingo!. Now here's the sad kicker; how many of these virgin girls happily submitted to their enemy's sexual needs? How many wanted to have sex with these strangers? I don't know either, but it's highly doubtful it was more than a handful, and with the exception of this handful of willing partners all the rest were raped. They didn't want to have sex, but they had no say in the matter except to unwillingly submit to it: Rape.


.
The other reason these warriors would have wanted virgins is to assure that if any offspring resulted from their raping they would know the children were there's. One also has to wonder how they knew the girls they raped were virgins. Did God give them a recipe to determine this?


Tcg
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Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #14

Post by Miles »

Tcg wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 7:58 pm
Miles wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 7:12 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 3:43 pm
Miles wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 3:39 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:43 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:57 pm
My concern here is verse 18 where Moses tells the conquering soldiers "18 But save for yourselves every girl who has never gone to bed with a man."

In effect, god is saying:"You have my permission to rape them." I say this because there is no mention or even implication that the soldiers need first marry the girls, or even marry them at all. Plus a women's consent is never mentioned. Like it or not, a soldier could take what ever virgin girl he desired, to which the girl is never given the option to decline. Pretty much a matter of rape as I see it.
Sex was not allowed under the law during military campaigns for Israel. So, it is not 'as you see it'.
1Sa 21:5; 2Sa 11:6-11.
Well the "campaign" described in Numbers 3 was over with. And, as Tcg rightly pointed out. "it doesn't change what would have happened to these virgins after the campaigns."

.
Change what?
". . . what would have happened to these virgins after the campaigns."


You have not shown proof of rape after the campaign.
I don't need to. What else should one infer from Moses's decree that specifically focuses on virginity if the taking of virgin girls isn't about sex? ? He's saying, don't bother with non-virigin widows, but concentrate on young girls who are still virgins. WHY? Because virgin girls are almost always more desirable then older "used" widows. Something Moses was almost assuredly aware of and saw as a more fitting reward for winning the battle. Who wants an "old" wife?

Now, after a war do you think young, battle weary soldiers are thinking more about getting married and settling down or having sex with the virgin girl they were just "given"? My bet is the later. And here's Moses telling them just how to go about it: "But the young girls who have never slept with a man, keep alive for yourselves." "Keep alive for yourselves" NOT marry for yourselves, but keep alive, and for what reason do you think? Could it be for sex? Bingo!. Now here's the sad kicker; how many of these virgin girls happily submitted to their enemy's sexual needs? How many wanted to have sex with these strangers? I don't know either, but it's highly doubtful it was more than a handful, and with the exception of this handful of willing partners all the rest were raped. They didn't want to have sex, but they had no say in the matter except to unwillingly submit to it: Rape.


.
The other reason these warriors would have wanted virgins is to assure that if any offspring resulted from their raping they would know the children were there's. One also has to wonder how they knew the girls they raped were virgins. Did God give them a recipe to determine this?

Tcg
If I recall my Bible correctly, I believe they were asked to give a show of hands.


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Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #15

Post by Tcg »

Miles wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 8:21 pm
Tcg wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 7:58 pm
Miles wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 7:12 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 3:43 pm
Miles wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 3:39 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:43 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:57 pm
My concern here is verse 18 where Moses tells the conquering soldiers "18 But save for yourselves every girl who has never gone to bed with a man."

In effect, god is saying:"You have my permission to rape them." I say this because there is no mention or even implication that the soldiers need first marry the girls, or even marry them at all. Plus a women's consent is never mentioned. Like it or not, a soldier could take what ever virgin girl he desired, to which the girl is never given the option to decline. Pretty much a matter of rape as I see it.
Sex was not allowed under the law during military campaigns for Israel. So, it is not 'as you see it'.
1Sa 21:5; 2Sa 11:6-11.
Well the "campaign" described in Numbers 3 was over with. And, as Tcg rightly pointed out. "it doesn't change what would have happened to these virgins after the campaigns."

.
Change what?
". . . what would have happened to these virgins after the campaigns."


You have not shown proof of rape after the campaign.
I don't need to. What else should one infer from Moses's decree that specifically focuses on virginity if the taking of virgin girls isn't about sex? ? He's saying, don't bother with non-virigin widows, but concentrate on young girls who are still virgins. WHY? Because virgin girls are almost always more desirable then older "used" widows. Something Moses was almost assuredly aware of and saw as a more fitting reward for winning the battle. Who wants an "old" wife?

Now, after a war do you think young, battle weary soldiers are thinking more about getting married and settling down or having sex with the virgin girl they were just "given"? My bet is the later. And here's Moses telling them just how to go about it: "But the young girls who have never slept with a man, keep alive for yourselves." "Keep alive for yourselves" NOT marry for yourselves, but keep alive, and for what reason do you think? Could it be for sex? Bingo!. Now here's the sad kicker; how many of these virgin girls happily submitted to their enemy's sexual needs? How many wanted to have sex with these strangers? I don't know either, but it's highly doubtful it was more than a handful, and with the exception of this handful of willing partners all the rest were raped. They didn't want to have sex, but they had no say in the matter except to unwillingly submit to it: Rape.


.
The other reason these warriors would have wanted virgins is to assure that if any offspring resulted from their raping they would know the children were there's. One also has to wonder how they knew the girls they raped were virgins. Did God give them a recipe to determine this?

Tcg
If I recall my Bible correctly, I believe they were asked to give a show of hands.


.
With their parents watching I'm sure. Oh wait, their parents would be dead at that point. Sure that'd be an objective method.


Tcg
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- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #16

Post by 2timothy316 »

Tcg wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 8:26 pm
Miles wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 8:21 pm
Tcg wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 7:58 pm
Miles wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 7:12 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 3:43 pm
Miles wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 3:39 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:43 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:57 pm
My concern here is verse 18 where Moses tells the conquering soldiers "18 But save for yourselves every girl who has never gone to bed with a man."

In effect, god is saying:"You have my permission to rape them." I say this because there is no mention or even implication that the soldiers need first marry the girls, or even marry them at all. Plus a women's consent is never mentioned. Like it or not, a soldier could take what ever virgin girl he desired, to which the girl is never given the option to decline. Pretty much a matter of rape as I see it.
Sex was not allowed under the law during military campaigns for Israel. So, it is not 'as you see it'.
1Sa 21:5; 2Sa 11:6-11.
Well the "campaign" described in Numbers 3 was over with. And, as Tcg rightly pointed out. "it doesn't change what would have happened to these virgins after the campaigns."

.
Change what?
". . . what would have happened to these virgins after the campaigns."


You have not shown proof of rape after the campaign.
I don't need to. What else should one infer from Moses's decree that specifically focuses on virginity if the taking of virgin girls isn't about sex? ? He's saying, don't bother with non-virigin widows, but concentrate on young girls who are still virgins. WHY? Because virgin girls are almost always more desirable then older "used" widows. Something Moses was almost assuredly aware of and saw as a more fitting reward for winning the battle. Who wants an "old" wife?

Now, after a war do you think young, battle weary soldiers are thinking more about getting married and settling down or having sex with the virgin girl they were just "given"? My bet is the later. And here's Moses telling them just how to go about it: "But the young girls who have never slept with a man, keep alive for yourselves." "Keep alive for yourselves" NOT marry for yourselves, but keep alive, and for what reason do you think? Could it be for sex? Bingo!. Now here's the sad kicker; how many of these virgin girls happily submitted to their enemy's sexual needs? How many wanted to have sex with these strangers? I don't know either, but it's highly doubtful it was more than a handful, and with the exception of this handful of willing partners all the rest were raped. They didn't want to have sex, but they had no say in the matter except to unwillingly submit to it: Rape.


.
The other reason these warriors would have wanted virgins is to assure that if any offspring resulted from their raping they would know the children were there's. One also has to wonder how they knew the girls they raped were virgins. Did God give them a recipe to determine this?

Tcg
If I recall my Bible correctly, I believe they were asked to give a show of hands.


.
With their parents watching I'm sure. Oh wait, their parents would be dead at that point. Sure that'd be an objective method.


Tcg
Parents of other nations where known for giving their children to prostitution or burning them alive which is why they were wiped out. Sooooo what else you got?
Last edited by 2timothy316 on Wed Mar 30, 2022 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #17

Post by 2timothy316 »

Miles wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 7:12 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 3:43 pm
Miles wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 3:39 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:43 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:57 pm
My concern here is verse 18 where Moses tells the conquering soldiers "18 But save for yourselves every girl who has never gone to bed with a man."

In effect, god is saying:"You have my permission to rape them." I say this because there is no mention or even implication that the soldiers need first marry the girls, or even marry them at all. Plus a women's consent is never mentioned. Like it or not, a soldier could take what ever virgin girl he desired, to which the girl is never given the option to decline. Pretty much a matter of rape as I see it.
Sex was not allowed under the law during military campaigns for Israel. So, it is not 'as you see it'.
1Sa 21:5; 2Sa 11:6-11.
Well the "campaign" described in Numbers 3 was over with. And, as Tcg rightly pointed out. "it doesn't change what would have happened to these virgins after the campaigns."

.
Change what?
". . . what would have happened to these virgins after the campaigns."


You have not shown proof of rape after the campaign.
I don't believe I need to.
Frankly what you believe is not admissible neither is speculation. Its about what you can prove using the Bible in this forum. So back up your statement using the Bible or concede.

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Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #18

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

.

First off, before I dissect this post, let me just say..

I find it remarkable how skeptics will always point out what they believe to be atrocities as it pertains to God's character acts of discipline, judgement, and anger towards evil people or nations.

However, they are silent when the Bible speaks on God's act of blessings, rewards, kindness, mercy and forgiveness.

Truly remarkable. But I guess we have to feed our needs to reject/deny every time our sub conscious calls and/or convicts us.

Second, the atheist would need to explain where they get their objective moral values and duties from, and also why are those standards more superior than that of God's, and as long as they acknowledge that their moral standards are subjective, then at that point we are just arguing which of the two pizzas are better; the one with the pepperoni, or the one with the pineapples.

You have your opinion, and I have mines.

But anyways..
Miles wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:57 pm In Numbers 31 we have god speaking to Moses:

1 "The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Get even with the Midianites for what they did to the Israelites. After that you will join your ancestors in death” 3 So Moses spoke to the people."[/indent]
Aight, so according to God, it was time to get even.

Ok, what else ya got?
Miles wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:57 pm 17 So kill all the Midianite boys
All children go to heaven.
Miles wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:57 pm and every Midianite woman who has gone to bed with a man.
God wanted to preserve the very best from a evil nation and give it to his chosen people; yes, even the women.
Miles wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:57 pm 18 But save for yourselves every girl who has never gone to bed with a man.
Yeah, and in verse Num 25:1 you will see that some of the men of Israel had fornicated with the Moabite/Midianite women and committed harlotry with the women and idolatry with their gods.

God commanded that the Israelite MEN who participated in those affairs were put to death, and the women, who undoubtedly participated in those affairs were also put to death.

However, the men that didn't commit those acts were spared (Num 25:5), and so were the women, who would OBVIOUSLY be virgins.

So the guilty were punished, and the innocent were spared.

No problems there.
Miles wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:57 pm That god found the foregoing acceptable is borne out by his lack of any comment about it, and by pressing on to further issues, such as how the spoils of the war were to be divvied up.
Hmm, not seeing anything about rape, as you allege.

Do you have anything else? Lets see..
Miles wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:57 pm My concern here is verse 18 where Moses tells the conquering soldiers "18 But save for yourselves every girl who has never gone to bed with a man."

In effect, god is saying:"You have my permission to rape them." I say this because there is no mention or even implication that the soldiers need first marry the girls, or even marry them at all.
Yeah, and there is also no mention or even implication that the soldiers had full Godly permission to rape the women, either.

That just doesn't fit the overall character of God in the Old testament.

Funny, you conclude the lack of mention of marriage means rape...but you don't conclude that the lack of rape means marriage.

Or maybe the implication is; "You were once prohibited from marrying foreigners, but since these foreign women (Midianites) will now be integrated within Israelite society, you are free to marry them as you please".

And of course they will have to abide by God's rules and regulations just like everyone else.

But no one is being raped or forced to marry anyone.

There is not one Bible verse which supports forced marriage.
Miles wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:57 pm Plus a women's consent is never mentioned. Like it or not, a soldier could take what ever virgin girl he desired, to which the girl is never given the option to decline. Pretty much a matter of rape as I see it.
Yeah, as YOU see it.

I see it different.
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Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #19

Post by Tcg »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 12:39 am
Or maybe the implication is; "You were once prohibited from marrying foreigners, but since these foreign women (Midianites) will now be integrated within Israelite society, you are free to marry them as you please".
Do you have a reference for this passage or are you creating new scripture? Do we need to create a new book called "We are Venom?" Would it be part of the Newer than New Testament?


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I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

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Re: God, Carnage, And Rape

Post #20

Post by Miles »

2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 9:34 pm
Miles wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 7:12 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 3:43 pm
Miles wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 3:39 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:43 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:57 pm
My concern here is verse 18 where Moses tells the conquering soldiers "18 But save for yourselves every girl who has never gone to bed with a man."

In effect, god is saying:"You have my permission to rape them." I say this because there is no mention or even implication that the soldiers need first marry the girls, or even marry them at all. Plus a women's consent is never mentioned. Like it or not, a soldier could take what ever virgin girl he desired, to which the girl is never given the option to decline. Pretty much a matter of rape as I see it.
Sex was not allowed under the law during military campaigns for Israel. So, it is not 'as you see it'.
1Sa 21:5; 2Sa 11:6-11.
Well the "campaign" described in Numbers 3 was over with. And, as Tcg rightly pointed out. "it doesn't change what would have happened to these virgins after the campaigns."

.
Change what?
". . . what would have happened to these virgins after the campaigns."


You have not shown proof of rape after the campaign.
I don't believe I need to.
Frankly what you believe is not admissible neither is speculation. Its about what you can prove using the Bible in this forum. So back up your statement using the Bible or concede.
Sorry, I was unaware you had been appointed Gate-Keeper of Believability and Speculation. In which case please bear with me while I fix my comment: . . . . "I don't ̶b̶e̶l̶i̶e̶v̶e̶ ̶I̶ need to." There, we good now? Of course we are. :mrgreen: NOW, on with your critique of what I said following my opening remark here. We await your cogent rebuttal.



.

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