For Christians. Are You A Follower Of Jesus? It's Highly Doubtful

[Miles]

.

Consider:

Luke 1249-:53
49 Jesus continued speaking: “I came to bring fire to the world. I wish it were already burning! 50 There is a kind of baptism[ that I must suffer through. I feel very troubled until it is finished. 51 Do you think I came to give peace to the world? No, I came to divide the world! 52 From now on, a family of five will be divided, three against two, and two against three.

53
A father and son will be divided:
The son will turn against his father.
The father will turn against his son.
A mother and her daughter will be divided:
The daughter will turn against her mother.
The mother will turn against her daughter.
A mother-in-law and her daughter-in-law will be divided:
The daughter-in-law will turn against her mother-in-law.
The mother-in-law will turn against her daughter-in-law.”


Luke 14:26
26 “If you come to me but will not leave your family, you cannot be my follower. You must love me more than your father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters—even more than your own life!

Ever see anyone do any of the above? I haven't. In fact, Jesus makes a great prediction, which, honestly, I've also never seen happen.

Matthew 10:34-36
34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace. I came to bring trouble. 35 I have come to make this happen:

‘A son will turn against his father.
A daughter will turn against her mother.
A daughter-in-law will turn against her mother-in-law.
36 Even members of your own family will be your enemies.’

So, what's going on here? Have YOU turned against your mother or father and the other members of your family? Is no one a true follower of Jesus or can Christians simply disregard such troublesome verses?


Is Jesus simply an utter failure here?

.

[onewithhim]

The three Hebrews survived a literal fire, so I don't see where this comes into the argument for or against a fiery "hell." Evil people in Gehenna will not survive a metaphoric fire. As has been said, the RESULT of being thrown into Gehenna is what Jesus is trying to get across to us. A fire will burn something up completely, and that is what happens to wicked individuals in the end. He could've said, "They will drown in the sea".....the "fire" is not the important part of what the Bible says about destruction using the fire as a metaphor. It is the result. Just as if someone were drowned in the sea or pushed off a building. I dare say that fire is used because of its ability to completely obliterate somebody. That is the point---an individual is completely destroyed. Nothing is left of him at all. (Unlike a person in a literal hell-fire.....how can someone's spirit be burned up in a literal fire? Nothing immaterial could be literally burned up, in real fire.)

[Tcg]

... I have found have Jesus instruct his followed to "turn against" their family.

You're quite correct because I wasn't directly quoting the bible but in a sense paraphrasing it:

Okay so, there is no scripture where Jesus instructs his followers to turn against their family. It is not a Christian requirement.

Agreed?

JW

Well, there is this:

Luke 14:26 -

“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple."

But we all know how easy it is to ignore what the Bible actually says. We of course also have this admission from a Christian who would be willing to turn against a family member if the circumstances were right:

If you were under this law, and you were a priest, and found that your daughter had committed fornication; would you light the match, or ask someone else to do it?

If they were burnt to death, then yes absolutely, without reservation I would light the match if thats what the law required. Yes.



JW

Tcg

[Purple Knight]

There are people who have left their spouse and children to follow Jesus? Well blow me down and call me ignorant. But thinking about it, why not. We still have flat-earthers among us.

Yes. In religious communities like the JWs and Mormons, it happens. I'm usually on the side of the religiosos because by the time you're doing something bad enough to get kicked out, usually, it's pretty bad. I've had Mormon in-laws and I've been researching disfellowshipment in the JWs.

I'm on their side here because, although he's not exactly putting it in modernically polite terms, Jesus is describing what very well should happen when new morality arrives: It will be very divisive. Imagine if Nazis had won and endured for a millennium before a genuine moral revolution. Or imagine if the vegans are right and all this time, all of human history, every time we killed an animal, it was actually morally wrong. Do you think the people preaching change aren't tearing up families? Do you think they ought to stop and just be happy with an immoral status quo because a family might be broken if they speak up?

Take the dogma he happens to be preaching out of it. Take Christianity more or less out of it. What you're talking about is Jesus's take on what should happen when new morality arrives, and he's giving a very firm no to the idea that you should ever just stuff it because it might rock the boat. Rock it. Let it tip over. Some people will be eaten by sharks. Don't let it stop you from doing the right thing.

[kjw47]

.

Consider:

Luke 1249-:53
49 Jesus continued speaking: “I came to bring fire to the world. I wish it were already burning! 50 There is a kind of baptism[ that I must suffer through. I feel very troubled until it is finished. 51 Do you think I came to give peace to the world? No, I came to divide the world! 52 From now on, a family of five will be divided, three against two, and two against three.

53
A father and son will be divided:
The son will turn against his father.
The father will turn against his son.
A mother and her daughter will be divided:
The daughter will turn against her mother.
The mother will turn against her daughter.
A mother-in-law and her daughter-in-law will be divided:
The daughter-in-law will turn against her mother-in-law.
The mother-in-law will turn against her daughter-in-law.”


Luke 14:26
26 “If you come to me but will not leave your family, you cannot be my follower. You must love me more than your father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters—even more than your own life!

Ever see anyone do any of the above? I haven't. In fact, Jesus makes a great prediction, which, honestly, I've also never seen happen.

Matthew 10:34-36
34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace. I came to bring trouble. 35 I have come to make this happen:

‘A son will turn against his father.
A daughter will turn against her mother.
A daughter-in-law will turn against her mother-in-law.
36 Even members of your own family will be your enemies.’

So, what's going on here? Have YOU turned against your mother or father and the other members of your family? Is no one a true follower of Jesus or can Christians simply disregard such troublesome verses?


Is Jesus simply an utter failure here?

.

You have it all wrong. If one is a real follower of Jesus, then if a family member rejects being a follower, then they become spiritual enemies, not physical enemies hopefully. God is the only one offering eternal life to those who are his true followers. He should be put first in all things.

[Miles]

.

Consider:

Luke 1249-:53
49 Jesus continued speaking: “I came to bring fire to the world. I wish it were already burning! 50 There is a kind of baptism[ that I must suffer through. I feel very troubled until it is finished. 51 Do you think I came to give peace to the world? No, I came to divide the world! 52 From now on, a family of five will be divided, three against two, and two against three.

53
A father and son will be divided:
The son will turn against his father.
The father will turn against his son.
A mother and her daughter will be divided:
The daughter will turn against her mother.
The mother will turn against her daughter.
A mother-in-law and her daughter-in-law will be divided:
The daughter-in-law will turn against her mother-in-law.
The mother-in-law will turn against her daughter-in-law.”


Luke 14:26
26 “If you come to me but will not leave your family, you cannot be my follower. You must love me more than your father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters—even more than your own life!

Ever see anyone do any of the above? I haven't. In fact, Jesus makes a great prediction, which, honestly, I've also never seen happen.

Matthew 10:34-36
34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace. I came to bring trouble. 35 I have come to make this happen:

‘A son will turn against his father.
A daughter will turn against her mother.
A daughter-in-law will turn against her mother-in-law.
36 Even members of your own family will be your enemies.’

So, what's going on here? Have YOU turned against your mother or father and the other members of your family? Is no one a true follower of Jesus or can Christians simply disregard such troublesome verses?


Is Jesus simply an utter failure here?

.

You have it all wrong. If one is a real follower of Jesus, then if a family member rejects being a follower, then they become spiritual enemies, not physical enemies hopefully. God is the only one offering eternal life to those who are his true followers. He should be put first in all things.

Show me where the verses cited above or any other relevant verse I've quoted say Jesus's comments above hold true only if a family member rejects being a follower.

.

[kjw47]

.

Consider:

Luke 1249-:53
49 Jesus continued speaking: “I came to bring fire to the world. I wish it were already burning! 50 There is a kind of baptism[ that I must suffer through. I feel very troubled until it is finished. 51 Do you think I came to give peace to the world? No, I came to divide the world! 52 From now on, a family of five will be divided, three against two, and two against three.

53
A father and son will be divided:
The son will turn against his father.
The father will turn against his son.
A mother and her daughter will be divided:
The daughter will turn against her mother.
The mother will turn against her daughter.
A mother-in-law and her daughter-in-law will be divided:
The daughter-in-law will turn against her mother-in-law.
The mother-in-law will turn against her daughter-in-law.”


Luke 14:26
26 “If you come to me but will not leave your family, you cannot be my follower. You must love me more than your father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters—even more than your own life!

Ever see anyone do any of the above? I haven't. In fact, Jesus makes a great prediction, which, honestly, I've also never seen happen.

Matthew 10:34-36
34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace. I came to bring trouble. 35 I have come to make this happen:

‘A son will turn against his father.
A daughter will turn against her mother.
A daughter-in-law will turn against her mother-in-law.
36 Even members of your own family will be your enemies.’

So, what's going on here? Have YOU turned against your mother or father and the other members of your family? Is no one a true follower of Jesus or can Christians simply disregard such troublesome verses?


Is Jesus simply an utter failure here?

.

You have it all wrong. If one is a real follower of Jesus, then if a family member rejects being a follower, then they become spiritual enemies, not physical enemies hopefully. God is the only one offering eternal life to those who are his true followers. He should be put first in all things.

Show me where the verses cited above or any other relevant verse I've quoted say Jesus's comments above hold true only if a family member rejects being a follower.

.

That is what Jesus meant by saying the members of ones own household would be their enemies. Matt 10:34-36--- Jesus doesnt want any being physical enemies, he was speaking of one being spiritual enemies. As you can read at Matt 10:37-38- They must love Jesus more than their family members. Not all will.

[AquinasForGod]

This is why bible only is such a horrible idea. I highly recommend to look at how the early church fathers understood the bible. Or you could just look up any verse and type in "Catholic Answers."

Luke 14:26
26 “If you come to me but will not leave your family, you cannot be my follower. You must love me more than your father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters—even more than your own life!

Ever see anyone do any of the above? I haven't. In fact, Jesus makes a great prediction, which, honestly, I've also never seen happen.

Jesus was talking about those that are his disciples, not everyone that would believe in his resurrection. He was also saying that truth divides families, which it does. We must be prepared that our families might disown us if we follow Jesus. But the disciples had to leave everything behind and physically follow Jesus around. They gave up a much bigger sacrifice and become apostles.

The next verse you quote does happen. Sons and fathers do turn against each other because one of them becomes Catholic.

[DaveD49]

From reading the original question and a number of the posts it seems to me that a number of you are missing the point of Jesus' words. He was NOT describing how a Christian was to act, but rather what would happen to them as a result of being a Christian. And that is precisely what DID happen. Families were broken apart when one or more members of the family abandoned their faith in order to walk with Jesus. By their own families many were turned over to authorities where they were imprisoned and often killed. This was not an event isolated to Roman times; there were more Christian martyrs in the 20th Century than in all other centuries combined.

[DJT_47]

Jesus had many followers. Being a follower is not what's important. What IS important is being a child of God, a Christian, one that is owned by the Lord. He purchased the church with his own blood, so, you must be a member of his church. How does that happen? Acts 2:38-47 tells you how. Upon being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins, the Lord adds you to the church (verse 47)

Acts 2:38-47

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.43And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. 44And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 45And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. 46And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 47Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to DJT_47 in post #69]
See posts #66 and #68. That's it in a nutshell.