For Christians. Are You A Follower Of Jesus? It's Highly Doubtful

Exploring the details of Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Miles
Savant
Posts: 5179
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:19 pm
Has thanked: 434 times
Been thanked: 1614 times

For Christians. Are You A Follower Of Jesus? It's Highly Doubtful

Post #1

Post by Miles »

.

Consider:

Luke 1249-:53
49 Jesus continued speaking: “I came to bring fire to the world. I wish it were already burning! 50 There is a kind of baptism[ that I must suffer through. I feel very troubled until it is finished. 51 Do you think I came to give peace to the world? No, I came to divide the world! 52 From now on, a family of five will be divided, three against two, and two against three.

53
A father and son will be divided:
The son will turn against his father.
The father will turn against his son.
A mother and her daughter will be divided:
The daughter will turn against her mother.
The mother will turn against her daughter.
A mother-in-law and her daughter-in-law will be divided:
The daughter-in-law will turn against her mother-in-law.
The mother-in-law will turn against her daughter-in-law.”


Luke 14:26

26 “If you come to me but will not leave your family, you cannot be my follower. You must love me more than your father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters—even more than your own life!

Ever see anyone do any of the above? I haven't. In fact, Jesus makes a great prediction, which, honestly, I've also never seen happen.


Matthew 10:34-36
34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace. I came to bring trouble. 35 I have come to make this happen:

‘A son will turn against his father.
A daughter will turn against her mother.
A daughter-in-law will turn against her mother-in-law.
36 Even members of your own family will be your enemies.’


So, what's going on here? Have YOU turned against your mother or father and the other members of your family? Is no one a true follower of Jesus or can Christians simply disregard such troublesome verses?


Is Jesus simply an utter failure here?

.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: For Christians. Are You A Follower Of Jesus? It's Highly Doubtful

Post #2

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 2:56 pm Have YOU turned against your mother or father and the other members of your family?
None of the scriptures quoted have Jesus instruct his followed to, {to quote you}, ...."turn against" {end quote} their family.

Image


I do not know which translation (if it is indeed a translation) you cited of Luke 14:26 but none I have found have Jesus instruct his followed to "turn against" their family.

Various translations
https://biblehub.com/luke/14-26.htm



JW



RELATED POSTS
Did Jesus teach his followers to hate their families?
viewtopic.php?p=921209#p921209

Should Jesus words about abandoning "all things" be taken literally?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 89#p908689

Are atrocities committed by nominal "Christians" justifiable?
viewtopic.php?p=1026487#p1026487
To learn more please go to other posts related to...

LOVE, HATE and ...RACIAL UNITY
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat May 07, 2022 4:05 pm, edited 4 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
Difflugia
Prodigy
Posts: 3017
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:25 am
Location: Michigan
Has thanked: 3247 times
Been thanked: 1997 times

Re: For Christians. Are You A Follower Of Jesus? It's Highly Doubtful

Post #3

Post by Difflugia »

Miles wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 2:56 pmEver see anyone do any of the above?
Yes.
Miles wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 2:56 pmI haven't.
I suspect that you haven't spent much time around theologically conservative churches hearing people ask God to convict an estranged child of their sins so that they might return to the dysfunctional fold "as only You can. In Jesus' name we pray." It's not rare and it's not limited to groups like Jehovah's Witnesses and the Amish. They're just the ones that catch the most heat for it.

On a related note, my wife's parents have never met their thirteen-year-old granddaughter.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

User avatar
Difflugia
Prodigy
Posts: 3017
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:25 am
Location: Michigan
Has thanked: 3247 times
Been thanked: 1997 times

Re: For Christians. Are You A Follower Of Jesus? It's Highly Doubtful

Post #4

Post by Difflugia »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 3:49 pmI do not know which translation (if it is indeed a translation) you cited of Luke 14:26 but none I have found say "turn against"
Thank you. I would have been disappointed if this thread made it through the first page without an apologetic attempt at hair-splitting.

Luke 14:26 says hate. The Greek word is μισεῖ, whence the prefix miso- in such words as misogyny and misanthropy.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: For Christians. Are You A Follower Of Jesus? It's Highly Doubtful

Post #5

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Difflugia wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 4:09 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 3:49 pmI do not know which translation (if it is indeed a translation) you cited of Luke 14:26 but none I have found say "turn against"
Thank you. I would have been disappointed if this thread made it through the first page without an apologetic attempt at hair-splitting.

Luke 14:26 says hate. The Greek word is μισεῖ, whence the prefix miso- in such words as misogyny and misanthropy.

I said I could not find a translation that rendered the above "turn against", evidently neither did you. I do believe One can use the thumbs up button to signal agreement.



JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
Difflugia
Prodigy
Posts: 3017
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:25 am
Location: Michigan
Has thanked: 3247 times
Been thanked: 1997 times

Re: For Christians. Are You A Follower Of Jesus? It's Highly Doubtful

Post #6

Post by Difflugia »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 4:13 pmI said I could not find a translation that rendered the above "turn against", evidently neither did you. I do believe One can use the thumbs up button to signal agreement.
Now quote half of a dictionary entry for the trifecta.

Image
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

User avatar
Miles
Savant
Posts: 5179
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:19 pm
Has thanked: 434 times
Been thanked: 1614 times

Re: For Christians. Are You A Follower Of Jesus? It's Highly Doubtful

Post #7

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 3:49 pm
Miles wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 2:56 pm Have YOU turned against your mother or father and the other members of your family?
None of the scriptures quoted have Jesus instruct his followed to, {to quote you}, ...."turn against" {end quote} their family.

I do not know which translation (if it is indeed a translation) you cited of Luke 14:26 but none I have found have Jesus instruct his followed to "turn against" their family.
You're quite correct because I wasn't directly quoting the bible but in a sense paraphrasing it: "Have YOU turned against your mother or father and the other members of your family?" Note the lack of quotation marks around any part of my original statement.

In as much as "turn against" seems to be your primary concern here and not "family," please note that not only did I cite Luke 14:26, but I also cited Luke 12:53 where turn against is part of the description:

ERV
A father and son will be divided:
The son will turn against his father.
The father will turn against his son.
A mother and her daughter will be divided:
The daughter will turn against her mother.
The mother will turn against her daughter.
A mother-in-law and her daughter-in-law will be divided:
The daughter-in-law will turn[ against her mother-in-law.
The mother-in-law will turn against her daughter-in-law.

CEV
Fathers and sons will turn against one another, and mothers and daughters will do the same. Mothers-in-law and daughters-in-law will also turn against each other.

NIRV
They will be separated. Father will turn against son and son against father. Mother will turn against daughter and daughter against mother. Mother-in-law will turn against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”


PLUS, those Bibles that don't use "turn against" almost always use " divided against." "Against" as seen in your definition of "turned."


Image


As in the first five Bibles listed in my source where the phrase is almost always "shall/will be divided against."

KJ21
The father shall be divided against the son and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter and the daughter against the mother; the mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.”

ASV
They shall be divided, father against son, and son against father; mother against daughter, and daughter against her mother; mother in law against her daughter in law, and daughter in law against her mother in law.

AMP
They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”

AMPC
They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

BRG
The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.


Moreover, there's Matthew 10:35, which I also cited, where there's a whole lot of turning going on:

CSB
For I came to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;

CEB
I’ve come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law

CEV
I came to turn sons against their fathers, daughters against their mothers, and daughters-in-law against their mothers-in-law.

ERV
I have come to make this happen: ‘A son will turn against his father. A daughter will turn against her mother. A daughter-in-law will turn against her mother-in-law.

GW
I came to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

HCSB
For I came to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;

LEB
For I have come to turn a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

Etc

Etc.

User avatar
Miles
Savant
Posts: 5179
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:19 pm
Has thanked: 434 times
Been thanked: 1614 times

Re: For Christians. Are You A Follower Of Jesus? It's Highly Doubtful

Post #8

Post by Miles »

Difflugia wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 3:54 pm
Miles wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 2:56 pmEver see anyone do any of the above?
Yes.
There are people who have left their spouse and children to follow Jesus? Well blow me down and call me ignorant. But thinking about it, why not. We still have flat-earthers among us.

Miles wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 2:56 pmI haven't.
I suspect that you haven't spent much time around theologically conservative churches hearing people ask God to convict an estranged child of their sins so that they might return to the dysfunctional fold "as only You can. In Jesus' name we pray." It's not rare and it's not limited to groups like Jehovah's Witnesses and the Amish. They're just the ones that catch the most heat for it.
Gotta tell you, I just can't buy your contention that abandoning one's family to follow Jesus is not rare. For what it's worth, I consider "rare" to be anything in the lower single digit percentages, and I know Jehovah's Witnesses make up less than 1% of the all Christian, and altogether, in 2021, the Amish only consisted of 361,635 members. .............But percentages aside, fact is, I was unaware that abandoning one's family was part of JW and Amish belief. Gotta ask Jehovah's Witnesses here who he's abandoned.

Jehovah's Witnesses, care to share?


On a related note, my wife's parents have never met their thirteen-year-old granddaughter.
Now that''s sad. I assume it was her parents that abandoned their granddaughter, and not the other way around.

User avatar
tam
Savant
Posts: 6443
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 353 times
Been thanked: 324 times
Contact:

Re: For Christians. Are You A Follower Of Jesus? It's Highly Doubtful

Post #9

Post by tam »

Peace to you,

I belong to/am a disciple of Christ Jaheshua (whose name is not "Jesus"). So in answer to your question:
Miles wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 2:56 pm .

Consider:

Luke 1249-:53
49 Jesus continued speaking: “I came to bring fire to the world. I wish it were already burning! 50 There is a kind of baptism[ that I must suffer through. I feel very troubled until it is finished. 51 Do you think I came to give peace to the world? No, I came to divide the world! 52 From now on, a family of five will be divided, three against two, and two against three.

53
A father and son will be divided:
The son will turn against his father.
The father will turn against his son.
A mother and her daughter will be divided:
The daughter will turn against her mother.
The mother will turn against her daughter.
A mother-in-law and her daughter-in-law will be divided:
The daughter-in-law will turn against her mother-in-law.
The mother-in-law will turn against her daughter-in-law.”


Luke 14:26

26 “If you come to me but will not leave your family, you cannot be my follower. You must love me more than your father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters—even more than your own life!

Ever see anyone do any of the above? I haven't. In fact, Jesus makes a great prediction, which, honestly, I've also never seen happen.
Happens all the time. Just think about shunning. Family members literally turning against their mothers/fathers/sons/daughters/cousins/siblings, etc... even to the point of shunning them if that person leaves their religion... even if that person leaves the religion because that is what Christ has called them to do. That person then has his family members turn against him/her because of his/her faith in Christ and obedience to Him. That is what Christ is speaking about.

As for who one loves the most: If the person in the above scenario had loved mother, father, brother, sister, etc, more than Christ... then that person might have remained in something false in order to please their family. Instead of coming to Christ. It works the same with religion if someone loves their religion more than Christ. Then their loyalty, their obedience is to the religion instead of to Christ. Whereas if someone loves Christ, then, as He said, that person will remain in His word and obey His commands. (John 14:21, 23)


Matthew 10:34-36
34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace. I came to bring trouble. 35 I have come to make this happen:

‘A son will turn against his father.
A daughter will turn against her mother.
A daughter-in-law will turn against her mother-in-law.
36 Even members of your own family will be your enemies.’


So, what's going on here? Have YOU turned against your mother or father and the other members of your family? Is no one a true follower of Jesus or can Christians simply disregard such troublesome verses?
Christ is not instructing His disciples to turn against their family members. This has been be done TO His disciples BY family members (and by others as well).

"Members of your own family will be your enemies."
Is Jesus simply an utter failure here?
Consider that what Christ said is true, He is not a failure at all.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
- Non-religious Christian spirituality

- For Christ (who is the Spirit)

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: For Christians. Are You A Follower Of Jesus? It's Highly Doubtful

Post #10

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 7:34 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 3:49 pm ... I have found have Jesus instruct his followed to "turn against" their family.
You're quite correct because I wasn't directly quoting the bible but in a sense paraphrasing it:
Okay so, there is no scripture where Jesus instructs his followers to turn against their family. It is not a Christian requirement.

Agreed?



JW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat May 07, 2022 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

Post Reply