For Christians. Are You A Follower Of Jesus? It's Highly Doubtful

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Miles
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For Christians. Are You A Follower Of Jesus? It's Highly Doubtful

Post #1

Post by Miles »

.

Consider:

Luke 1249-:53
49 Jesus continued speaking: “I came to bring fire to the world. I wish it were already burning! 50 There is a kind of baptism[ that I must suffer through. I feel very troubled until it is finished. 51 Do you think I came to give peace to the world? No, I came to divide the world! 52 From now on, a family of five will be divided, three against two, and two against three.

53
A father and son will be divided:
The son will turn against his father.
The father will turn against his son.
A mother and her daughter will be divided:
The daughter will turn against her mother.
The mother will turn against her daughter.
A mother-in-law and her daughter-in-law will be divided:
The daughter-in-law will turn against her mother-in-law.
The mother-in-law will turn against her daughter-in-law.”


Luke 14:26

26 “If you come to me but will not leave your family, you cannot be my follower. You must love me more than your father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters—even more than your own life!

Ever see anyone do any of the above? I haven't. In fact, Jesus makes a great prediction, which, honestly, I've also never seen happen.


Matthew 10:34-36
34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace. I came to bring trouble. 35 I have come to make this happen:

‘A son will turn against his father.
A daughter will turn against her mother.
A daughter-in-law will turn against her mother-in-law.
36 Even members of your own family will be your enemies.’


So, what's going on here? Have YOU turned against your mother or father and the other members of your family? Is no one a true follower of Jesus or can Christians simply disregard such troublesome verses?


Is Jesus simply an utter failure here?

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Re: For Christians. Are You A Follower Of Jesus? It's Highly Doubtful

Post #11

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 8:22 pm... I was unaware that abandoning one's family was part of JW and Amish belief. ... Jehovah's Witnesses, care to share?
No, abandoning one's family is not part of the Jehovah's Witness belief system. For Jehovahs Witnesses marriage is a permanent arrangement and divorce is only permitted on the grounds of adultery. NOTE: Our practice of disfellowshipping (shunning ) does NOT affect family resonsibilities. We take the bible very seriously including the following
1 TIMOTHY 5:8 - New Living Translation

But those who won’t care for their relatives, especially those in their own household, have denied the true faith. Such people are worse than unbelievers.
  • The Watchtower November 1, 1988 points out {quote} "Stubborn refusal to support one’s family may result in disfellowshipping"
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun May 08, 2022 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: For Christians. Are You A Follower Of Jesus? It's Highly Doubtful

Post #12

Post by Difflugia »

Miles wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 8:22 pmNow that''s sad. I assume it was her parents that abandoned their granddaughter, and not the other way around.
It is. The granddaughter is almost incidental. Her parents haven't spoken to my wife since she switched churches a couple of years before we got married, so it's been close to twenty years. She was in her mid-twenties and on her own (we worked together), so it wasn't like the teenagers that get kicked out of the house or whatever, but it was traumatic enough. They belonged to one of the "independent Baptist" denominations and she switched to a Southern Baptist church. The whole thing was surreal to me. She kept telling me they'd disown her, but I didn't believe it. I grew up in an unconditional love sort of situation, so I was like, "Nah, your dad's a little intense, but when push comes to shove, he'll choose his kids." He didn't. The pastor and I got along before that, mostly I think because we could talk theology even though I was an atheist. He ended up trying to get me to tell her to go back to the old church, as in "be the man and tell her" kind of tell her. I declined. Surreal.

That wasn't the first time that happened in that church, even in the little over a year that I attended with her.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

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Re: For Christians. Are You A Follower Of Jesus? It's Highly Doubtful

Post #13

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 8:25 pm
Miles wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 7:34 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 3:49 pm ... I have found have Jesus instruct his followed to "turn against" their family.
You're quite correct because I wasn't directly quoting the bible but in a sense paraphrasing it:
Okay so, there is no scripture where Jesus instructs his followers to turn against their family. It is not a Christian requirement.

Agreed?
Perhaps. I'll have to take a look, but whether Jesus instructed anyone is a whole other issue.

Thing is, thee issue, which you even emphasized by saying "{to quote you}, ....'turn against' {end quote}" was "turning against." Full quote:

None of the scriptures quoted have Jesus instruct his followed to, {to quote you}, ...."turn against" {end quote} their family.

Which, as far as I'm concerned, has been settled. Now you wish to discuss whether Jesus instructed anyone or not.




OKAY
, onto Jesus instructing people to turn against their family.

In Matthew 10:26-27 Jesus says to his disciples:

"26 “So don’t be afraid of those people. Everything that is hidden will be shown. Everything that is secret will be made known. 27 I tell you all this secretly, but I want you to tell it publicly. Whatever I tell you privately, you should shout for everyone to hear."

So Jesus wants all to hear his message, which would include Matthew 10:34-36:

34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace. I came to bring trouble.[h] 35 I have come to make this happen:

‘A son will turn against his father.
A daughter will turn against her mother.
A daughter-in-law will turn against her mother-in-law.
36 Even members of your own family will be your enemies.’

Now, whether Jesus expects people to abandon family members because he's instructed them to do so (a matter of their free choice at work) or they just let it happen (a matter of inevitability) because Jesus will make it happen, renders the issue moot. For whatever underlying reason, people will abandon their family members either out of choice or because Jesus has made them do so. Neither of which seems at all commendable, or, considering all the tight-knit Christian families roaming about, working very well. O:)

Of course these wouldn't be good or true Christians who have any chance of making it into Heaven anyway, but what the heck, there's only so much room as it is.



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Re: For Christians. Are You A Follower Of Jesus? It's Highly Doubtful

Post #14

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 1:00 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 8:25 pm
Okay so, there is no scripture where Jesus instructs his followers to turn against their family. It is not a Christian requirement.

Agreed?
Perhaps. I'll have to take a look [...]

So basically you haven't looked yet, ie. by your own admission, you do not know scripture enough to be sure or not as to whether Jesus instructed his followed to turn against their families. Since you haven't by your own admission "looked" (or at least you have not looked enough to come to a definite conclusion on the matter) might it not be wise to bow to the opinion of those that have?
Miles wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 1:00 am.... whether Jesus instructed anyone is a whole other issue.

Not for most Christians it isn't and certainly not for me! If Jesus didn't instruct his followers to do something in terms of worship, most bible believing Christians believe we are not obliged to do it; in short it is not a Christian requirement. Therefore, if someone were to challenge us that one cannot be a "real" follower of Christ unless we do A-B or C, we will ask to be shown in the bible where Jesus instructs us to do that thing or did so himself and indicated we do the same. I recognise then that you have not "looked" into this question of Christ's speccific instructions and perhaps, failed to consider the weight Christs words and actions have on Christian policy.


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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: For Christians. Are You A Follower Of Jesus? It's Highly Doubtful

Post #15

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 1:00 am
....
‘A son will turn against his father.
A daughter will turn against her mother.
A daughter-in-law will turn against her mother-in-law.
36 Even members of your own family will be your enemies.’
Are you suggesting that every time Jesus predicted something "will" happen, it should be taken as a de facto instruction or permission for his follwers to do that thing ?
If a Chief Police Officer predicts that 2,000 children will be killed by drunk drivers next year, do you think his staff should take that as permission to grab a bottle of whiskey and hit the road?
Can you not understand that saying something "will" happen, does not equate to an instruction to make it so?




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Is it Jehovahs Witness policy to abandon their families ?
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: For Christians. Are You A Follower Of Jesus? It's Highly Doubtful

Post #16

Post by 1213 »

Miles wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 2:56 pm ...
Is Jesus simply an utter failure here?
I don't think so. Jesus was correct that his teachings would lead to many troubles, because those who accept his message will be hated by those who don't accept it.

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Re: For Christians. Are You A Follower Of Jesus? It's Highly Doubtful

Post #17

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 9:18 am
Miles wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 1:00 am
....
‘A son will turn against his father.
A daughter will turn against her mother.
A daughter-in-law will turn against her mother-in-law.
36 Even members of your own family will be your enemies.’
Are you suggesting that every time Jesus predicted something "will" happen, it should be taken as a de facto instruction or permission for his follwers to do that thing ?
Not at all. However, when Jesus says in

Matthew 10:35-36
"I have come to make this happen:

A son will turn against his father.
A daughter will turn against her mother.
A daughter-in-law will turn against her mother-in-law.
36 Even members of your own family will be your enemies."

As a Christian I would take this to mean that come Hell or high water a son will turn against his father, etc. no matter how it comes about. Why? Because the Son of God says so, and the Son of God isn't suppose to be a liar and can do anything he says he can. Trouble is, looking at the extremely few Christians who actually abandon their family, Jesus ain't doing much of a job at making any of it happen.


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Post #18

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 4:34 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 9:18 am Are you suggesting that every time Jesus predicted something "will" happen, it should be taken as a de facto instruction or permission for his follwers to do that thing ?
Not at all. ...
Good. So, unless you are resorting to "special pleading", Jesus predictions are not to be taken as instructions or permission to turn against anyone.



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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: For Christians. Are You A Follower Of Jesus? It's Highly Doubtful

Post #19

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 5:02 pm
Miles wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 4:34 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 9:18 am Are you suggesting that every time Jesus predicted something "will" happen, it should be taken as a de facto instruction or permission for his follwers to do that thing ?
Not at all. ...
Good. So, unless you are resorting to "special pleading", Jesus predictions are not to be taken as instructions or permission to turn against anyone.


A brief test in ENGLISH GRAMMAR:

"I have come to make this happen:" is a . . .


pre·dic·tion
/prəˈdikSH(ə)n/
noun: prediction; plural noun: predictions
a thing predicted; a forecast.

predict
/prəˈdikt/
verb: predict;
say or estimate that (a specified thing) will happen in the future or will be a consequence of something.


OR



dec·la·ra·tion
/ˌdekləˈrāSH(ə)n/
noun: declaration; plural noun: declarations
a formal or explicit statement or announcement.

de·clare
/diˈkler/
verb: declare;
say something in a solemn and emphatic manner.




Hint: Left click mouse and scroll over -> Choosing "prediction" is incorrect. Try again.


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Re: For Christians. Are You A Follower Of Jesus? It's Highly Doubtful

Post #20

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 7:25 pm
"I have come to make this happen:" is a . . .


... quotation?


If so, could you source the quote with a reference and (if applicable) the translation.


Good form,


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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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