Judging and punishing others

[Rose2020]

1 Corinthians Chapter 5 .

Surely Paul did not mean physical harm should be meted out to a known sinner by his brethren?
I take this chapter to mean if a person is obviously a bad influence, he ought to be made to leave. After all God is the true judge. Yet such cruelty has been exercised over the centuries, by taking the words in the Bible as a license to beat, torture and kill.

To apply Paul's teachings to our lives, I would say simply dissociate from those who are a corrupting influence, but do not be cruel and even murderous yourself.
To me, Jesus always taught with love. Paul knew that - he did not personally harm anyone did he?

[Eloi]

Since Jehovah, the God of the Jews, is the Creator and God of the entire Universe, including all non-Jewish nations, and his promise encompasses all mankind...his relationship with Israel is but an outline of its relationship with the human race in general, and represents the liberation of all humanity from the yoke of sin, death and a system dominated by spirits and people not qualified for that task.

When Jesus mentioned "Israel" here, for example:

Matt. 10:23 When they persecute you in one city, flee to another; for truly I say to you, you will by no means complete the circuit of the cities of Israel until the Son of man arrives.

...it stands to reason that he was referring to a territory that encompassed much more than what had once been the territory of that nation (which was now Roman territory).

The message of the Bible is a hope for all humanity. In the future, the paradise that will encompass the entire planet will be like the territory that was given to the Israelites after they were liberated from the land of Egypt. So the promises of God to "Israel" mean more than just the pact he made with that nation when liberated them from Egipt.

Rom. 3:29 Or is he the God of the Jews only? Is he not also the God of people of the nations? Yes, also of people of the nations. 30 Since God is one, he will declare circumcised people righteous as a result of faith and uncircumcised people righteous by means of their faith. 31 Do we, then, abolish law by means of our faith? Not at all! On the contrary, we uphold law.

[JehovahsWitness]

I take this chapter to mean if a person is obviously a bad influence, he ought to be made to leave.

Yeah but... What if he won't leave?

Ultimately, aggressive force backs up all decrees that you're going to make anybody do anything.

Shunning or disfellowshipping does not involve forcing the wrongdoer to "do" anything; it is the congregation that takes measures.

1 CORINTHIANS 5:11 - NET

But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person+ or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man.

There is no mention in scripture of "making anyone leave" so, anyone, even disfellowshipped /shunned ex-members, (even apostates) can attend public services as long as they are not dangerous and do not disrupt the proceedings.


JW

[2timothy316]

[Replying to Miles in post #7]

The old (physical) covenant has been replaced, the ten commandments are (in at least some cases) not part of the old covenant.

For example honoring the Sabbath day predates Moses, it is described as "eternal" too.

But as I read the Bible the new covenant, that which replaced the old covenant, was only between god and the families of Israel and Judah,

Jeremiah 31:31-34
The New Agreement
31 This is what the Lord said, “The time is coming when I will make a new agreement with the family of Israel and with the family of Judah. 32 It will not be like the agreement I made with their ancestors. I made that agreement when I took them by the hand and brought them out of Egypt. I was their master, but they broke that agreement.” This message is from the Lord.

33 “In the future I will make this agreement with the people of Israel.” This message is from the Lord. “I will put my teachings in their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 People will not have to teach their neighbors and relatives to know the Lord, because all people, from the least important to the most important, will know me.” This message is from the Lord. “I will forgive them for the evil things they did. I will not remember their sins.”

Yes this is correct. When Jesus installed the new covenant he brought it to the Jews first and then it was offered to the nations (gentiles) after Pentecost 33 CE. Yet the covenant was always supposed to go beyond just natural Israel as is pointed out in Acts 3:25, 26 where it says, "All the families of the earth will be blessed". Luke was referencing Genesis 22:18. And in Acts 10, a Greek man name Cornelius and his family were the first ones to be blessed Holy Spirit on the basis of this new covenant.

After Cornelius was blessed with Holy Spirit Peter understood as we do too that, "At this Peter began to speak, and he said: “Now I truly understand that God is not partial, but in every nation the man who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him." Acts 10:34. It is Jesus' death that makes it possible that 'all the families of the earth' can be blessed.
Beautiful.

[Miles]

[Replying to Miles in post #7]

The old (physical) covenant has been replaced, the ten commandments are (in at least some cases) not part of the old covenant.

For example honoring the Sabbath day predates Moses, it is described as "eternal" too.

But as I read the Bible the new covenant, that which replaced the old covenant, was only between god and the families of Israel and Judah,

Jeremiah 31:31-34
The New Agreement
31 This is what the Lord said, “The time is coming when I will make a new agreement with the family of Israel and with the family of Judah. 32 It will not be like the agreement I made with their ancestors. I made that agreement when I took them by the hand and brought them out of Egypt. I was their master, but they broke that agreement.” This message is from the Lord.

33 “In the future I will make this agreement with the people of Israel.” This message is from the Lord. “I will put my teachings in their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 People will not have to teach their neighbors and relatives to know the Lord, because all people, from the least important to the most important, will know me.” This message is from the Lord. “I will forgive them for the evil things they did. I will not remember their sins.”

Yes this is correct. When Jesus installed the new covenant he brought it to the Jews first and then it was offered to the nations (gentiles) after Pentecost 33 CE. Yet the covenant was always supposed to go beyond just natural Israel as is pointed out in Acts 3:25, 26 where it says, "All the families of the earth will be blessed". Luke was referencing Genesis 22:18. And in Acts 10, a Greek man name Cornelius and his family were the first ones to be blessed Holy Spirit on the basis of this new covenant.

After Cornelius was blessed with Holy Spirit Peter understood as we do too that, "At this Peter began to speak, and he said: “Now I truly understand that God is not partial, but in every nation the man who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him." Acts 10:34. It is Jesus' death that makes it possible that 'all the families of the earth' can be blessed.
Beautiful.

But the quote "All the families of the earth will be blessed" comes from Genesis 22:18, long before a replacement covenant was even up for consideration, so it has no bearing on what is to be done with the new covenant. And why would god lack the foresight to include all people when he purposely qualified his statement to included only the families of Israel and Judah? He wouldn't. MOREOVER, the verse in Acts 3 is only in response to what Abraham had been ready to do:

Acts 3:16-18
16 The angel said, “You were ready to kill your only son for me. Since you did this for me, I make you this promise: I, the Lord, promise that 17 I will surely bless you and give you as many descendants as the stars in the sky. There will be as many people as sand on the seashore. And your people will live in cities that they will take from their enemies. 18 Every nation on the earth will be blessed through your descendants. I will do this because you obeyed me.”

The blessing is in no way depicting people other than the families of Israel and Judah under the new covenant. And do you really believe that everyone on Earth is a descendant of Abraham? Of course not. At least I hope not.


.

[Eloi]

The Israelites did not invent Jehovah; they knew Him from the ancestors of mankind. In the Bible, Jehovah is NOT portrayed as a God of the territory of Israel, but as the Creator of the Universe, the planet and the first parents of man.

Christianism (as taugh by Jesus himself and his original followers) takes Jehovah away from the Jews, because He does not belong to them, but they were choosen by Him. That, of course, has to do with Jehovah's original purpose when he created the human race.

Matt. 21:42 Jesus said to them: “Did YOU never read in the Scriptures, ‘The stone that the builders rejected is the one that has become the chief cornerstone. From Jehovah this has come to be, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? 43 This is why I say to YOU, The kingdom of God will be taken from YOU and be given to a nation producing its fruits. 44 Also, the person falling upon this stone will be shattered. As for anyone upon whom it falls, it will pulverize him.”

[2timothy316]

[Replying to Miles in post #7]

The old (physical) covenant has been replaced, the ten commandments are (in at least some cases) not part of the old covenant.

For example honoring the Sabbath day predates Moses, it is described as "eternal" too.

But as I read the Bible the new covenant, that which replaced the old covenant, was only between god and the families of Israel and Judah,

Jeremiah 31:31-34
The New Agreement
31 This is what the Lord said, “The time is coming when I will make a new agreement with the family of Israel and with the family of Judah. 32 It will not be like the agreement I made with their ancestors. I made that agreement when I took them by the hand and brought them out of Egypt. I was their master, but they broke that agreement.” This message is from the Lord.

33 “In the future I will make this agreement with the people of Israel.” This message is from the Lord. “I will put my teachings in their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 People will not have to teach their neighbors and relatives to know the Lord, because all people, from the least important to the most important, will know me.” This message is from the Lord. “I will forgive them for the evil things they did. I will not remember their sins.”

Yes this is correct. When Jesus installed the new covenant he brought it to the Jews first and then it was offered to the nations (gentiles) after Pentecost 33 CE. Yet the covenant was always supposed to go beyond just natural Israel as is pointed out in Acts 3:25, 26 where it says, "All the families of the earth will be blessed". Luke was referencing Genesis 22:18. And in Acts 10, a Greek man name Cornelius and his family were the first ones to be blessed Holy Spirit on the basis of this new covenant.

After Cornelius was blessed with Holy Spirit Peter understood as we do too that, "At this Peter began to speak, and he said: “Now I truly understand that God is not partial, but in every nation the man who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him." Acts 10:34. It is Jesus' death that makes it possible that 'all the families of the earth' can be blessed.
Beautiful.

But the quote "All the families of the earth will be blessed" comes from Genesis 22:18, long before a replacement covenant was even up for consideration, so it has no bearing on what is to be done with the new covenant. And why would god lack the foresight to include all people when he purposely qualified his statement to included only the families of Israel and Judah? He wouldn't. MOREOVER, the verse in Acts 3 is only in response to what Abraham had been ready to do:

Acts 3:16-18
16 The angel said, “You were ready to kill your only son for me. Since you did this for me, I make you this promise: I, the Lord, promise that 17 I will surely bless you and give you as many descendants as the stars in the sky. There will be as many people as sand on the seashore. And your people will live in cities that they will take from their enemies. 18 Every nation on the earth will be blessed through your descendants. I will do this because you obeyed me.”

The blessing is in no way depicting people other than the families of Israel and Judah under the new covenant. And do you really believe that everyone on Earth is a descendant of Abraham? Of course not. At least I hope not.


.

The blessing through Abraham is that the savior of the world would come from his family line, and it did. This in turn blesses the entire earth. That's the covenant made with Abraham.
"Every nation on the earth will be blessed through your descendants".

The covenant made with Israel, the Mosaic Law is not the same covenant as the one made with Abraham. Though the Mosaic Law did play it's part to ensure the Abrahmaic covenant was honored.

[Miles]

[Replying to Miles in post #7]

The old (physical) covenant has been replaced, the ten commandments are (in at least some cases) not part of the old covenant.

For example honoring the Sabbath day predates Moses, it is described as "eternal" too.

But as I read the Bible the new covenant, that which replaced the old covenant, was only between god and the families of Israel and Judah,

Jeremiah 31:31-34
The New Agreement
31 This is what the Lord said, “The time is coming when I will make a new agreement with the family of Israel and with the family of Judah. 32 It will not be like the agreement I made with their ancestors. I made that agreement when I took them by the hand and brought them out of Egypt. I was their master, but they broke that agreement.” This message is from the Lord.

33 “In the future I will make this agreement with the people of Israel.” This message is from the Lord. “I will put my teachings in their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 People will not have to teach their neighbors and relatives to know the Lord, because all people, from the least important to the most important, will know me.” This message is from the Lord. “I will forgive them for the evil things they did. I will not remember their sins.”

Yes this is correct. When Jesus installed the new covenant he brought it to the Jews first and then it was offered to the nations (gentiles) after Pentecost 33 CE. Yet the covenant was always supposed to go beyond just natural Israel as is pointed out in Acts 3:25, 26 where it says, "All the families of the earth will be blessed". Luke was referencing Genesis 22:18. And in Acts 10, a Greek man name Cornelius and his family were the first ones to be blessed Holy Spirit on the basis of this new covenant.

After Cornelius was blessed with Holy Spirit Peter understood as we do too that, "At this Peter began to speak, and he said: “Now I truly understand that God is not partial, but in every nation the man who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him." Acts 10:34. It is Jesus' death that makes it possible that 'all the families of the earth' can be blessed.
Beautiful.

But the quote "All the families of the earth will be blessed" comes from Genesis 22:18, long before a replacement covenant was even up for consideration, so it has no bearing on what is to be done with the new covenant. And why would god lack the foresight to include all people when he purposely qualified his statement to included only the families of Israel and Judah? He wouldn't. MOREOVER, the verse in Acts 3 is only in response to what Abraham had been ready to do:

Acts 3:16-18
16 The angel said, “You were ready to kill your only son for me. Since you did this for me, I make you this promise: I, the Lord, promise that 17 I will surely bless you and give you as many descendants as the stars in the sky. There will be as many people as sand on the seashore. And your people will live in cities that they will take from their enemies. 18 Every nation on the earth will be blessed through your descendants. I will do this because you obeyed me.”

The blessing is in no way depicting people other than the families of Israel and Judah under the new covenant. And do you really believe that everyone on Earth is a descendant of Abraham? Of course not. At least I hope not.


.

The blessing through Abraham is that the savior of the world would come from his family line, and it did.

The blessing is nothing of the sort. ALL it says is

Genesis 22:18
"18 Every nation on the earth will be blessed through your descendants. I will do this because you obeyed me.”

Not a peep about a savior, or anybody at all for that matter. The blessing could be good health, a long life, or good fortune for all anyone can tell.

And do you actually think god would hang an important blessing, such as saving humanity from its sins and a chance to stay out of a burning Hell, on an act as minor as some old bird obeying him or not? Perhaps you do.

This in turn blesses the entire earth. That's the covenant made with Abraham.
"Every nation on the earth will be blessed through your descendants".

If the blessing, whatever it was is, was to come "through your [Abraham's] descendants" it would mean that those who did not descend from Abraham would be out of luck. So some would benefit while others would not; and through no fault of their own. And knowing that god does make mistakes from time to time, his "Every nation on the earth" could be a misstatement, meaning that some small nation may not have any descendants of Abraham in it at all----thanks god.

.

[JehovahsWitness]

GENESIS 22:18
"18 Every nation on the earth will be blessed through your descendants. I will do this because you obeyed me.”

...The blessing could be good health, a long life, or good fortune for all anyone can tell.

Indeed, it would take many millenia for the ABRAHAMIC COVENANT to be fully explained, but Paul did eventually address its significance notably in his letter to the Romans.

If the blessing, whatever it was is, was to come "through ... [Abraham's] descendants" it would mean that those who did not descend from Abraham would be out of luck. ...

No, the text explicitly states that "every nation" would be blessed, so whatever "blessing" is being refered to , unlike the restrictions expressed through the Mosaic law convenant, the text indicates nobody would be excluded from accessing it purely because of their nationality.




JW



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[Miles]

If the blessing, whatever it was is, was to come "through ... [Abraham's] descendants" it would mean that those who did not descend from Abraham would be out of luck. ...

No, the text explicitly states that "every nation" would be blessed, so whatever that blessing is, unlike the restrictions expressed through the Mosaic law convenant, nobody would be excluded from accessing it purely because of their nationality.

It also explicitly states:

Genesis 22:18
"18 Every nation on the earth will be blessed through your descendants. I will do this because you obeyed me.”

For whatever reason, god is only making the blessing available by using Abraham's descendants, which is apparently quite important, and I'm curious as to how he sees this working. To me, it indicates the descendants are suppose to do something in particular, maybe wave a white handkerchief over a glass of red wine, or deliver a letter, or maybe it's enough to simply be at a particular place at a particular time. What do you think god is trying to convey by using the phrase " through your descendants." ?


.

[JehovahsWitness]

What do you think god is trying to convey by using the phrase " through your descendants." ?

That the descendants of Abraham would play a key role. in ensuring that people from ALL nations enjoy the blessings God planned to give to the world.

For whatever reason ...

Well the bible account stated the reason namely because of Abrahams outstanding obedience.

Genesis 22:18
"Every nation on the earth will be blessed through your descendants. I will do this because you obeyed me.”

... I'm curious as to how he sees this working. To me, it indicates the descendants are suppose to do something in particular...

Yes, as it turns out they would.

ROMANS 4:23 -25

However, the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake only,+ 24 but also for our sake, to whom it will be counted, because we believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord up from the dead.+ 25 He was handed over for the sake of our trespasses+ and was raised up for the sake of declaring us righteous.+