Judging and punishing others

[Rose2020]

1 Corinthians Chapter 5 .

Surely Paul did not mean physical harm should be meted out to a known sinner by his brethren?
I take this chapter to mean if a person is obviously a bad influence, he ought to be made to leave. After all God is the true judge. Yet such cruelty has been exercised over the centuries, by taking the words in the Bible as a license to beat, torture and kill.

To apply Paul's teachings to our lives, I would say simply dissociate from those who are a corrupting influence, but do not be cruel and even murderous yourself.
To me, Jesus always taught with love. Paul knew that - he did not personally harm anyone did he?

[2timothy316]

Also, you're right, we shouldn't seek to kill or harm the wrong doer. There is nothing in the Bible that says to do that.

Of course there is:

Exodus 22:18 “Do not allow a sorceress to live.

19 “Anyone who has sexual relations with an animal is to be put to death.

20 “Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the Lord must be destroyed.

This is in the Bible and therefore proves your claim false.


Tcg

As I posted earlier in post #4, you're quoting the Mosaic Law which Christians are not obligated to follow since the death of Jesus Christ. Be it that I am not under the command of the Mosaic law thus proves your point moot. (Romans 10:4, Romans 7:6)

Trying to follow the Law Code today would be like putting new wine in old wineskins. It doesn't work. (Mt 9:17; Mr 2:22; Lu 5:37, 38) Just like trying to follow the Law of the Christ while trying to follow the Mosaic Law too. It doesn't work.

So, no Ten Commandments? They're out the window?

.

Yep. There is now something better.
“All things . . . that you want men to do to you, you also must do to them. This, in fact, is what the Law and the Prophets mean.” (Matthew 7:12; Luke 6:31)
In other words, what Jesus said here is what the 10 commandments are based on. So while the 10 commandments are no longer enforced, the new commandment is what many call, the 'Golden Rule".

To me this is quite strange, which has me curious as to the Christian denomination you belong to? Care to share?


.

To people that study the Bible it isn't strange. The 10 commandments are wrapped up in the Golden Rule. The part that has changed is the punishment for breaking the Golden Rule. Rather than kill the offender, now the instruction is to not make friends of them if they are not lovers of Jehovah God. (1 Cor. 15:33) If they are baptized Christians and are not repentant, then they are completely shunned. They are not even given a greeting. (1 Corinthians 5:11) We are supposed to treat them as if they were dead, in the hopes they will come to their senses and follow that 'Golden Rule' once again.

I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to Rose2020 in post #1]

**

I'm just going to post a couple of links that you might find helpful, keeping in mind of course that it is Christ who we are to follow, listen to, emulate:

Paul is also the person who LATER said (after having learned what was TRUE, what CHRIST taught on the matter):

Therefore let us stop judging one another. (Romans 14:13)

And it is THAT LATER STATEMENT that is in line with what Christ taught.

viewtopic.php?p=1070050#p1070050

Do not judge, or you will be judged. For with the same judgment you pronounce, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. - Christ Jaheshua, from Matthew 7:1,2

Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. - Christ, from Luke 6:37


Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but fail to notice the beam in your own eye? - Christ, from Luke 6:41

When they continued to question Him, He straightened up and said to them, "Whoever is without sin among you, let him be the first to cast a stone at her." - Christ, from John 8:7


That should be enough, right? Christ said don't judge; Christ is the One God said to listen to?

And I hate to put Paul's words up when Christ's words should be enough. And it does not matter what Paul said, if Paul is not saying the same thing that Christ said (and taught, in word and in deed). Paul is NOT master, lord, king, teacher. Unfortunately, many people treat him as being so, and for some inexplicable reason, think that he could never have made a mistake.

So I put the following up just to show you (whoever is reading) that Paul DID learn, despite his error at the beginning when he told people TO judge; an error that has misled people who look to PAUL instead of to CHRIST, and an error that threw into disarray, the Corinthian congregation that knew there was a conflict between Paul's words and their Lord's words. Hence, he wrote a third letter to them (even though it is titled 2nd Corinthians), and told the people to embrace the brother he had formerly told them to shun.

In any case, here is Paul LATER, after learning the truth:


Therefore let us stop judging one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. - Paul, Romans 14:13

viewtopic.php?p=895956#p895956


From the original link above also:

God told us to listen to His Son. (Mark 9:7) Yet SO FEW people even seem to CARE to do this. (John 14:21, notice whose commands the one who loves Christ will keep)


Christ also emphasized that God desires mercy, not sacrifice. (Matt 9:13; Hosea 6:6)
Christ also told us NOT to judge (lest we be judged). (Matt 7:1, 2; Luke 6:37)
Christ also said 'Let the one who is without sin cast the first stone'. That means NO ONE (then or today) is permitted to cast a stone. No one except for Christ (and of course His Father). Yet Christ chose NOT to cast a stone. Christ chose instead to do the very thing that His Father desires: to show mercy, to forgive. Christ had the right and the authority to judge that woman, and instead He forgave and showed her mercy.

He sets the example for us that we should follow. (John 13:15)

There is also no law against love... and it is LOVE that covers over a multitude of sins. (Galatians 5:22, 23; 1Peter 4:8; Proverbs 10:12)

I will add more links if I come across anything, but if we're getting right down to the root of the issue, if we are disciples of Christ we are to obey His commands, remain in HIS word, and follow Him .


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Purple Knight]

Also, you're right, we shouldn't seek to kill or harm the wrong doer. There is nothing in the Bible that says to do that. The dissociation is the discipline and the hopes is that the person will return to following in the footsteps of Christ. Heb. 12:7-11. Luke 15:11-24

I take this chapter to mean if a person is obviously a bad influence, he ought to be made to leave.

Yeah but... What if he won't leave?

Ultimately, aggressive force backs up all decrees that you're going to make anybody do anything. It's something we forget in a safe and trustful society where most people don't resist arrest, but it ought not be forgotten. Ultimately, if you're not going to harm someone if they don't do what you say, then they will eventually figure that out and ignore you.

I'm just going to post a couple of links that you might find helpful, keeping in mind of course that it is Christ who we are to follow, listen to, emulate:

+1. That's all in there. This is exactly the same stuff I was told as a child (by my Unitarian parents and pacifist minister) and while I respect the JWs for well knowing their lore to an admirable degree, I have great arguments with both them and Christian Identity fellows who take everything apparently pacifist in the Bible and reinterpret it (as far as I'm concerned) more reasonably.

I agree with the JWs on the practicality of the matter and think they are acting rationally, because pure pacifism is ruinous. But it seems to me that the Bible really does hammer in on several occasions that you can never ever judge another person's actions or even retaliate when someone strikes you.

I was even told you can't snitch, because when you snitch, no matter how bad the crime, you are wishing and causing consequences upon that person and you are therefore casting a stone. JW did point out, however, that in the story of the unforgiving slave, which I thought was a pure example of always forgive anything no matter what, never incite consequences on another, there is literally snitching in that story by another slave who goes to the master and tells him all. And nobody in the story says that's bad. So I don't know what to think on this.

[2timothy316]

Also, you're right, we shouldn't seek to kill or harm the wrong doer. There is nothing in the Bible that says to do that. The dissociation is the discipline and the hopes is that the person will return to following in the footsteps of Christ. Heb. 12:7-11. Luke 15:11-24

I take this chapter to mean if a person is obviously a bad influence, he ought to be made to leave.

Yeah but... What if he won't leave?

Ultimately, aggressive force backs up all decrees that you're going to make anybody do anything. It's something we forget in a safe and trustful society where most people don't resist arrest, but it ought not be forgotten. Ultimately, if you're not going to harm someone if they don't do what you say, then they will eventually figure that out and ignore you.

I'm just going to post a couple of links that you might find helpful, keeping in mind of course that it is Christ who we are to follow, listen to, emulate:

+1. That's all in there. This is exactly the same stuff I was told as a child (by my Unitarian parents and pacifist minister) and while I respect the JWs for well knowing their lore to an admirable degree, I have great arguments with both them and Christian Identity fellows who take everything apparently pacifist in the Bible and reinterpret it (as far as I'm concerned) more reasonably.

I agree with the JWs on the practicality of the matter and think they are acting rationally, because pure pacifism is ruinous. But it seems to me that the Bible really does hammer in on several occasions that you can never ever judge another person's actions or even retaliate when someone strikes you.

I was even told you can't snitch, because when you snitch, no matter how bad the crime, you are wishing and causing consequences upon that person and you are therefore casting a stone. JW did point out, however, that in the story of the unforgiving slave, which I thought was a pure example of always forgive anything no matter what, there is literally snitching in that story by another slave who goes to the master and tells him all. So I don't know what to think on this.

So lets say a person that has been disfellowshipped for some action that they were not repentant for. That person is welcome in our Kingdom Halls for meetings as long as they are respectful and understand the discipline that is being placed on them. I have seen 2 at my Hall do this for for about a year. No one talked to them and they didn't try to talk to others. When they were reinstated, a huge applause roared through the congregation and immediately after the meeting everyone started hugging and speaking to them. A person that returns to doing what is right in God's eyes is a joyous occasion.

However, lets say one of these people came to a meeting with the intent to disrupt the meeting. Not just trying to talk to people but truly disturbing the peace. Shouting insults during the meeting or even assaulting others. In that case Romans 13:1, 2 will be considered. If the person will not leave as you say, then they will be removed by the local authorities. Sad to say, I have read reports of this happening but they are very very rare.

Most that are disfellowshipped or those that just plain hate JWs that want to make insults at JWs do it on internet forums such as this or on youtube. Which is fine, I don't have to watch them or read their comments.

[JehovahsWitness]

Re: Judging and punishing others

ARE CHRISTIANS AUTHORIZED TO JUDGE OTHERS?


Christian elders (male members in a position of "leadership" ) are authorised in scripture to judge those within the congregation. They are not authorised to punish those they judge guilty of gross (serious) sin but are charged to take measures to protect the other members of the congregation from negative influence by expelling members that do not conform to godly standards of conduct.

1 CORINTHIANS 5:12, 13

For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.”

JESUS AND THE CHURCH


MATTHEW 18 - Berean Study Bible
If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, regard him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

RELATED POSTS

Are Christians authorised to judge others?
viewtopic.php?p=1077525#p1077525

Did Jesus prohibit all judging?
viewtopic.php?p=1077597#p1077597

[JehovahsWitness]

And I hate to put Paul's words up when Christ's words should be enough. .... Paul is NOT master, lord, king, teacher. Unfortunately, many people treat him as being so, and for some inexplicable reason, think that he could never have made a mistake.

Are Paul's words not inspired scripture ? Perhaps you should clarify position when it comes to scripture; are you of the opinion that the bible is helpful but anything that cannot be directly attributed to have been spoken by Christ is merely human opinion and obedience to such passages are merely optional?

And it does not matter what Paul said, if Paul is not saying the same thing that Christ said (and taught, in word and in deed).

Should bible believing Christians not seek to find harmony between scripture passages rather than rush to reject or abrogate?

[Eloi]

In 1 Cor. 7:12, 25, 40 Paul said he is not quoting direct teachings by Jesus on those points ... However his counsel based on his personal opinion was “God-breathed” since he was a spirit-filled apostle and therefore came to form part of the Sacred Scriptures, having equal authority with the rest of those Scriptures.

[Sherlock Holmes]

[Replying to Miles in post #7]

The old (physical) covenant has been replaced, the ten commandments are (in at least some cases) not part of the old covenant.

For example honoring the Sabbath day predates Moses, it is described as "eternal" too.

[Eloi]

The law of Moses was a law for a specific people. The Israelites were made into a nation, who were later given a territory in which to settle. Their laws were like the Constitution of their country, and they came from God, the One who separated them as a nation. Those laws were not for the rest of the world, but only for them.

Since the laws given to Israel reflect the Creator's point of view and advice on different human aspects such as their relationship with Him and with each other, the principles involved in all those laws are of paramount importance as regards what pleases God or not, and what humans should take into account for their own benefit and God's approval.

Since Christians are worshipers of the same God who gave the law to that nation, even if they are not under that national law, they are under the same principles involved in it.

[Miles]

[Replying to Miles in post #7]

The old (physical) covenant has been replaced, the ten commandments are (in at least some cases) not part of the old covenant.

For example honoring the Sabbath day predates Moses, it is described as "eternal" too.

But as I read the Bible the new covenant, that which replaced the old covenant, was only between god and the families of Israel and Judah,

Jeremiah 31:31-34
The New Agreement
31 This is what the Lord said, “The time is coming when I will make a new agreement with the family of Israel and with the family of Judah. 32 It will not be like the agreement I made with their ancestors. I made that agreement when I took them by the hand and brought them out of Egypt. I was their master, but they broke that agreement.” This message is from the Lord.

33 “In the future I will make this agreement with the people of Israel.” This message is from the Lord. “I will put my teachings in their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 People will not have to teach their neighbors and relatives to know the Lord, because all people, from the least important to the most important, will know me.” This message is from the Lord. “I will forgive them for the evil things they did. I will not remember their sins.”


Hebrews 8:8-13
8 But God found something wrong with the people. He said,
“The time is coming, says the Lord,
when I will give a new agreement
to the people of Israel and to the people of Judah.

9
It will not be like the agreement
that I gave to their fathers.
That is the agreement I gave when I took them by the hand
and led them out of Egypt.
They did not continue following the agreement I gave them,
and I turned away from them, says the Lord.
10
This is the new agreement I will give the people of Israel.
I will give this agreement in the future, says the Lord:
I will put my laws in their minds,
and I will write my laws on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11
Never again will anyone have to teach their neighbors
or their family to know the Lord.
All people—the greatest and the least important—will know me.
12
And I will forgive the wrongs they have done,
and I will not remember their sins.”

13 God called this a new agreement, so he has made the first agreement old. And anything that is old and useless is ready to disappear.

So, no agreement between god and anyone else, just those of Israel and Judah.

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