Judging and punishing others

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Rose2020
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Judging and punishing others

Post #1

Post by Rose2020 »

1 Corinthians Chapter 5 .

Surely Paul did not mean physical harm should be meted out to a known sinner by his brethren?
I take this chapter to mean if a person is obviously a bad influence, he ought to be made to leave. After all God is the true judge. Yet such cruelty has been exercised over the centuries, by taking the words in the Bible as a license to beat, torture and kill.

To apply Paul's teachings to our lives, I would say simply dissociate from those who are a corrupting influence, but do not be cruel and even murderous yourself.
To me, Jesus always taught with love. Paul knew that - he did not personally harm anyone did he?

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Re: Judging and punishing others

Post #31

Post by onewithhim »

Purple Knight wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 4:06 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 11:11 amAlso, you're right, we shouldn't seek to kill or harm the wrong doer. There is nothing in the Bible that says to do that. The dissociation is the discipline and the hopes is that the person will return to following in the footsteps of Christ. Heb. 12:7-11. Luke 15:11-24
Rose2020 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 1:26 am I take this chapter to mean if a person is obviously a bad influence, he ought to be made to leave.
Yeah but... What if he won't leave?

Ultimately, aggressive force backs up all decrees that you're going to make anybody do anything. It's something we forget in a safe and trustful society where most people don't resist arrest, but it ought not be forgotten. Ultimately, if you're not going to harm someone if they don't do what you say, then they will eventually figure that out and ignore you.
tam wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 2:36 pmI'm just going to post a couple of links that you might find helpful, keeping in mind of course that it is Christ who we are to follow, listen to, emulate:
+1. That's all in there. This is exactly the same stuff I was told as a child (by my Unitarian parents and pacifist minister) and while I respect the JWs for well knowing their lore to an admirable degree, I have great arguments with both them and Christian Identity fellows who take everything apparently pacifist in the Bible and reinterpret it (as far as I'm concerned) more reasonably.

I agree with the JWs on the practicality of the matter and think they are acting rationally, because pure pacifism is ruinous. But it seems to me that the Bible really does hammer in on several occasions that you can never ever judge another person's actions or even retaliate when someone strikes you.
It's pretty clear---not just a judgmental thing---when someone is committing serious sin. There are scriptures (even Jesus' words) that admonish the Christian congregation to put out of it anyone committing grievous sins. This protects the congregation and also helps the willful sinner to realize his precarious standing with Jehovah and stop doing what he should not be doing. The Bible hammers thusly:

Matthew 18:15-17
Romans 16:17
I Corinthians 5:11


What if he won't leave? He has to have left if the congregation has disfellowshipped him or her. He is no longer a member of the congregation. The action of the other members to stop speaking and associating with him make it clear that he is not a member any longer. He can come to meetings, but he will not be associated with.

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Re: Judging and punishing others

Post #32

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
I was even told you can't snitch, because when you snitch, no matter how bad the crime, you are wishing and causing consequences upon that person and you are therefore casting a stone. JW did point out, however, that in the story of the unforgiving slave, which I thought was a pure example of always forgive anything no matter what, never incite consequences on another, there is literally snitching in that story by another slave who goes to the master and tells him all. And nobody in the story says that's bad. So I don't know what to think on this.

"Snitching" depends. If someone is smoking, then reporting them may be just that: snitching. The "snitch" may need to learn to mind their own business and take a look at the log in their own eye. (In the case of the JW religion, a person could be cast out of the congregation and shunned if they do not repent/quit smoking. Being kicked out could - even according to their theology - be a death sentence). Going and speaking just to that person out of concern for them and their health - that could just be an act from love (a person would need to examine their own motivations for doing this, because someone could just like to boss people around and/or take away their freedom in Christ).

ON THE OTHER HAND... if you know someone is committing harm against another person, then reporting to the authorities would not be a matter of wishing consequences on someone or picking up a stone to toss at them. It might just be an act of love for the one being harmed (or the ones who might be harmed if you kept silent). This, then, is not about inciting consequences on someone; it is about trying to prevent harm on another person, out of love for that person. You don't have to judge anyone to do this; it is about protecting, not about judging.

AND... if someone sins against you, Christ taught us what to (though we can also just forgive them):

If your brother sins against you, go and confront him privately. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church*. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, regard him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.



(*the church/congregation = the PEOPLE)


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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Re: Judging and punishing others

Post #33

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 9:10 pm

(*the church/congregation = the PEOPLE)


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
The "church" or the "congregation" is meant to mean the brothers who represent the congregation---the elders. How can a deviant person deal with the whole membership of 100+ people? The elders are placed there by Christ to shepherd the flock.

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Re: Judging and punishing others

Post #34

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 12:09 pm
tam wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 2:36 pm
And I hate to put Paul's words up when Christ's words should be enough. .... Paul is NOT master, lord, king, teacher. Unfortunately, many people treat him as being so, and for some inexplicable reason, think that he could never have made a mistake.

Are Paul's words not inspired scripture ? Perhaps you should clarify position when it comes to scripture; are you of the opinion that the bible is helpful but anything that cannot be directly attributed to have been spoken by Christ is merely human opinion and obedience to such passages are merely optional?
Not that my opinion matters, but no, I am not of that opinion.

Christ called Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms scripture. So these are scripture (and inspired - meaning, in spirit). Revelation is also scripture. John of Patmos was in the spirit when he saw and heard things he was told to write down. The prophets are inspired (scripture). Most make a note in their account that the Word of God came to them:

The word of [the LORD] came to me, saying,... Jeremiah 1:4

On the other hand, Luke investigated what he wrote down. He did not receive it in spirit. He wrote down the testimonies that eyewitnesses had handed down. Luke is not inspired/scripture. Luke is an investigative account. "John" is also not inspired (not given/received in spirit). "John" is an eyewitness account.



You actually asked this question some years back, and here is a link to my posted response:

viewtopic.php?p=870774#p870774

Not sure if this link will help as well (about the Word of God):

viewtopic.php?p=927265#p927265

tam wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 2:36 pm
And it does not matter what Paul said, if Paul is not saying the same thing that Christ said (and taught, in word and in deed).

Should bible believing Christians not seek to find harmony between scripture passages rather than rush to reject or abrogate?
A Christian listens to Christ. Christ is the one to whom God told us to listen. Christ is the Truth and the Word of God.

If a person is going to seek to harmonize scripture passages, then that person should not do so at the expense of Christ's words. We don't take away from Christ and His word, just to bring His words into harmony with another person (or religion). If you must, harmonize the other person with Christ (if possible, and if not possible, then simply remain in Christ and His word). If Christ said not to judge, and Paul said to judge (at first, though he later got it right when he said 'let us stop judging one another')... a Christian goes with Christ. Either Paul made a mistake (at first), or we must be misunderstanding something about what Paul meant. Or perhaps there is an issue with the text (scribal error/translation error, etc).


We are to hold all things up against the LIGHT. That LIGHT is Christ.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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Re: Judging and punishing others

Post #35

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 10:00 pm
If a person is going to seek to harmonize scripture passages, then that person should not do so at the expense of Christ's words. ... if not possible, ...Either Paul made a mistake (at first), or we must be misunderstanding something about what Paul meant.
So, just to clarify, you believe it is possible that there are erroneous verses in the bible that should properly be ignored?
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Re: Judging and punishing others

Post #36

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 10:05 pm
tam wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 10:00 pm
If a person is going to seek to harmonize scripture passages, then that person should not do so at the expense of Christ's words. ... if not possible, ...Either Paul made a mistake (at first), or we must be misunderstanding something about what Paul meant.
So, just to clarify, you believe it is possible that there are erroneous verses in the bible that should properly be ignored?
There are erroneous verses that should not be obeyed, yes.

Christ said "do not judge lest you be judged'.

God tells us to listen to His Son.

Christ also said that if we love Him (Christ) then we will obey His commands; remain in His word.


Peace again to you.
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- For Christ (who is the Spirit)

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Re: Judging and punishing others

Post #37

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 10:38 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 10:05 pm
So, just to clarify, you believe it is possible that there are erroneous verses in the bible that should properly be ignored?
There are erroneous verses that should not be obeyed, yes.
DULY NOTED: I'll try and remember that in future.




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Re: Judging and punishing others

Post #38

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 10:00 pm Paul made a mistake (at first), or we must be misunderstanding something about what Paul meant.
I believe you have misunderstood something, not only about what Paul meant but what Jesus meant. You do well to re-read the context and see how both passages can be correct and still harmonize.

MATTHEW 18:15-18

Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go and reveal his fault between you and him alone.+ If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.+ 16 But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, so that on the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter* may be established.*+ 17 If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector.

MATTHEW 7:1

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Judging and punishing others

Post #39

Post by tam »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 10:56 pm
tam wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 10:00 pm Paul made a mistake (at first), or we must be misunderstanding something about what Paul meant.
You have misunderstood something, not only about what Paul meant but what Jesus meant. You do well to re-read the context and see how both passages can be correct and still harmonize.
Do not judge lest you be judged... this is clear. Not only His words, but also backed up by His example. Because when the time came to cast judgment on someone else (and Christ had the right to do so), He forgave and showed mercy instead. Even Paul later corrects himself from his original stance on judging. From "Are you not to judge those inside {the church}"? - to - Let US stop judging one ANOTHER. So no judging those inside the church after all. That second teaching is in line with Christ.


And Christ is the One to whom God led me, the One to whom God told us to listen, the One who is the Truth and the Word of God. He said that His sheep listen to HIS voice (John 10:27). See also Proverbs 8:6-7.



Peace again to you, and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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Re: Judging and punishing others

Post #40

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 11:20 pm Do not judge lest you be judged... this is clear.
So basically you are saying there is no point in looking to see if you have misunderstood something, that nobody can harmonize the two scriptures and that one of the passages must be rejected as erroneous (because if somebody is wrong its not you, it's Paul)?


Let me ask you a few of questions:

Did Jesus mention the word SIN in Matthew 7:1?

What did Jesus mean by instructing disciples call Witnesses to testify in Matthew 18?

Is it possible in the two verses Jesus was not speaking about judging in the same sense (context)?

Could it be that Jesus was not speaking in the absolute?
JW
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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