Judging and punishing others

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Rose2020
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Judging and punishing others

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Post by Rose2020 »

1 Corinthians Chapter 5 .

Surely Paul did not mean physical harm should be meted out to a known sinner by his brethren?
I take this chapter to mean if a person is obviously a bad influence, he ought to be made to leave. After all God is the true judge. Yet such cruelty has been exercised over the centuries, by taking the words in the Bible as a license to beat, torture and kill.

To apply Paul's teachings to our lives, I would say simply dissociate from those who are a corrupting influence, but do not be cruel and even murderous yourself.
To me, Jesus always taught with love. Paul knew that - he did not personally harm anyone did he?

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Re: Judging and punishing others

Post #71

Post by Purple Knight »

onewithhim wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 11:46 amIf we don't figuratively "cast a stone," as you say, we aren't helping that person. When we see something he is doing that is wrong---seriously wrong---and we don't speak to him and if necessary speak to the elders, we are not helping that person to stop doing his deliberate sinning and return to Jehovah. It is helpful to him, to aid him in turning around and giving up his willful seriously sinful actions so that the congregation is protected AND he can return to a good relationship with God.
If simply being talked to by scary Elders will ever fix the issue then there is no conflict and talking is the way to go. I'm talking about more serious wrongdoers who won't listen and do foist upon you that terrible choice: Let him keep doing what he's doing because he won't stop no matter what you say, or prosecute with the full force of the law and thus toss him into a den of rapists where he will in all probability be raped.

This is literally my mother. She's an unrepentant alcoholic who steals whenever she needs booze money. I solved the issue for myself alone by moving away but I assume she's found new people to steal from now. And if she can't convince them that it's evil to wish consequences on people, she's in jail. Probably not being raped because that's not as big an issue in women's prisons, but most of these kind of people are male, and men's prisons are pretty awful.

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Re: Judging and punishing others

Post #72

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Purple Knight wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 10:21 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 10:43 am
Purple Knight wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 10:39 pm

If you're worried you shouldn't call the police, no problem - just don't. Nobody said you had to. Ultimately an Elder will do it, and since you're not to judge him for calling the police, you're safe.
I dont quite follow your point here: Jehovah's Witness elders have religious (ecclesiastical ) responsibilities the rest of the congregation do not have, but not secular or civic ones. In short, ALL Jehovahs Witnesses (elders or not) have to decide if they report knowledge or suspicion of criminal activity to authorities or not. And all Jehovah's Witnesses (whether an elders or not) must obey the law as long as it does not conflict with divine law.

Reporting a crime is not judging the suspect, that is the duty of a judge, but it is under normal circumstances a moral and civic duty to report knowledge of a crime.
My point is actually that you're right about waiting for enlightenment because under most circumstances, unless you've deliberately taken more responsibility on yourself to protect and shepherd the congregation, you can simply not act and you're safe.
I think knight you are mixing up the points. My comment about "waiting for enlightenment" was not in connection with criminal law but bible understanding. This illustrates who I avoid talking about two different subjects in the same post.


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Re: Judging and punishing others

Post #73

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Purple Knight wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 10:21 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 1:41 amNOTE It is not the victim's responsibility how a convicted criminal is treated when incarcerated. If fellow prisoners themselves break the law in prison that is between them and the prison authorities.
I can see where you're making a distinction. However, just because someone else is to blame doesn't mean I am not also to blame. Just as I know that if I throw a stone, the person I hit will lose 1d4 hit points, I know that if I cause him to be put in jail, he's going to be raped
"casting the first stone" is not a reference to being the first to hurt someone as in some random act of violence, "casting the first stone" in biblical terms was a measure to limit false charges.

Neither the victim nor a witness is responsible for what happens to rightly convicted criminal. They would only be responsible if they lied or bought false charges which resulted in his wrongful conviction. Other than that, the repurcussions are all his own. If a child, for example, is raped and identifies her rapists and that rapists is eventually killed in prison in a drug induced brawl, the child does NOT the carry part of the responsibility for murder because she truthfuly reported what was done to her! That responsibility lies with the judge, the penal system, ultimately perhaps the Governor of the State but certainly not with the honest witness who does not have any say on the conviction, punishment or outcome.
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Re: Judging and punishing others

Post #74

Post by Purple Knight »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 2:19 amI think knight you are mixing up the points. My comment about "waiting for enlightenment" was not in connection with criminal law but bible understanding. This illustrates who I avoid talking about two different subjects in the same post.
It's related though. The Bible is a book of morality and the goal of life and law (well, I think anyway) is to try to be moral and just. The only reason you would have to choose right away if you think you see a contradiction is if you're faced with an immediate situation where you must act. In the case of this discussion about judging and punishing others, and what the Bible says about it, that would be something like seeing your child abused in front of your face. You have to choose right then whether you are a pacifist Christian who has only love for his enemies, smiles at the bully beating your kid and simply hopes he stops, or one who will physically defend the child.

And I'm thinking in terms of if you see a contradiction, you have to choose. You said, no, you don't, and unless you're faced with such a situation right this very second, you're right, you don't. In fact, such situations are rare enough to be virtually irrelevant, and I doubt there's even one person who encountered one and based his actions in that critical moment on philosophy and reason and debate and critical thinking.

I'll be the first one to admit that if he did base his act on reason and examination, he'd have a greater chance to err than if he simply did what everyone else does and let his heart make the choice in the moment. At very least, if he doesn't know and he's going to make a mistake, choices of the moment and heart are usually well understood by others and excused, even if they do err, whereas something come to by laborious hours of examination and consideration is overwhelmingly likely to get him punished if it errs. I know we're talking about morality and not the law, but people and their reactions can be a good gauge of morality.

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Re: Judging and punishing others

Post #75

Post by Purple Knight »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 2:44 am"casting the first stone" is not a reference to being the first to hurt someone as in some random act of violence, "casting the first stone" in biblical terms was a measure to limit false charges.
The way I read the story, the woman was really a hooker and this was Jesus saying, no, we're not going to punish people for being sexually immoral anymore, because you're actually all guilty.

https://www.bibleref.com/John/8/John-8-7.html
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 2:44 amNeither the victim nor a witness is responsible for what happens to rightly convicted criminal. They would only be responsible if they lied or bought false charges which resulted in his wrongful conviction. Other than that, the repurcussions are all his own. If a child, for example, is raped and identifies her rapists and that rapists is eventually killed in prison in a drug induced brawl, the child does NOT the carry part of the responsibility for murder because she truthfuly reported what was done to her! That responsibility lies with the judge, the penal system, ultimately perhaps the Governor of the State but certainly not with the honest witness who does not have any say on the conviction, punishment or outcome.
Maybe I'm mixing up moral responsibility with other kinds of responsibility. I often note that other people don't and can't distinct the two. For example, if a very attractive young woman walks down the street in a bad neighbourhood at night, dressed provocatively, and she gets raped. If it is suggested that she should not have done those things, people will say, how dare you, you are blaming her for the rape.

Do you see a relevant difference between a type of responsibility for an act as in, yeah, she shouldn't do that, she might get raped... and genuine moral responsibility, as in, she has done something morally abhorrent and is morally responsible for an immoral act?

If so, how do you manage that distinction when it comes to consequences of one's acts for other people, in terms of there still being a causal relationship between the act and the consequence of it? For example, if she brought her 7-year-old daughter along on the excursion, also dressed provocatively, and the child was raped. Or even if she convinced her adult friend to go with her when her friend didn't want to.

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Re: Judging and punishing others

Post #76

Post by onewithhim »

Purple Knight wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 10:32 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 11:46 amIf we don't figuratively "cast a stone," as you say, we aren't helping that person. When we see something he is doing that is wrong---seriously wrong---and we don't speak to him and if necessary speak to the elders, we are not helping that person to stop doing his deliberate sinning and return to Jehovah. It is helpful to him, to aid him in turning around and giving up his willful seriously sinful actions so that the congregation is protected AND he can return to a good relationship with God.
If simply being talked to by scary Elders will ever fix the issue then there is no conflict and talking is the way to go.
(Lol!) What makes you think that the elders are scary? Have you been to a meeting and have seen a scary elder giving a talk? Really, the elders are not scary. When I committed deliberate sin a few years ago and the elders talked to me, they were very kind. One of them cried. They didn't want to disfellowship me and begged me to just stop having my illicit relationship with a man. I respected them, and I knew they were telling me the truth and I wanted to listen to them, though I wanted the man too. I went through hell with that man for 5 years and finally took the elders' kind words to heart and stopped fornicating. I was reinstated into the congregation.

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