Judging and punishing others

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Rose2020
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Judging and punishing others

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Post by Rose2020 »

1 Corinthians Chapter 5 .

Surely Paul did not mean physical harm should be meted out to a known sinner by his brethren?
I take this chapter to mean if a person is obviously a bad influence, he ought to be made to leave. After all God is the true judge. Yet such cruelty has been exercised over the centuries, by taking the words in the Bible as a license to beat, torture and kill.

To apply Paul's teachings to our lives, I would say simply dissociate from those who are a corrupting influence, but do not be cruel and even murderous yourself.
To me, Jesus always taught with love. Paul knew that - he did not personally harm anyone did he?

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Re: Judging and punishing others

Post #51

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
Jesus' words cannot be ignored, and neither should Paul's, as he was hand-picked by Jesus to witness of him and his Father.
Everyone called by Christ is handpicked by Him to be His witnesses (and Christ is HIMSELF the true and faithful witness of His Father... John 14:7, 8:19; Matt 11:27; Rev 3:14, 1:5). That does not mean we can/do not make mistakes. As Peter also did, causing Paul to rebuke him to his face (Galatians 2). Anyone following Peter was being led astray in this hypocrisy.

Paul is a fellow servant/slave of Christ, but that does not mean he is infallible. Even HE said not to listen to anyone (including himself, the apostles, anyone, even including an angel from heaven) teach a contrary gospel (Galatians 1:7-9). So this whole, "listen to Paul no matter what just because his letters are included in the bible"... even Paul would not agree with that.

Christ's sheep listen to HIS voice.

Not to mention the fact that Paul later corrected himself from his earlier words of 'judge those inside the church' - TO - 'let us stop judging one another'. The second is aligned with Christ. In addition to that, Paul quickly changed the command he gave in his second letter to the Corinthians (we don't have a copy of his first letter). He went from "expel the person" (who had committed a sin of a sexual nature under the OT law, which law we are not even under, remember?) - TO - forgive and embrace that brother. He even explained that he gave that order as a test to the Corinthians obedience.

Obedience to who though?

Who are we supposed to be obedient to? Is it not Christ? Our King, Master, Lord? Are we not - if indeed we are in Christ - all brothers, with Christ as our ONE Leader and Teacher? That is what Christ said.

Paul even adds to the Corinthians (in his third letter) about the brother he formerly told them to expel, that "anyone you forgive, I also forgive. And what I have forgiven—if there was anything to forgive—I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake, in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes." 2Corinth 2:5-11

That is how it should have been to begin with.

"Forgive and you will be forgiven."

"Do not judge or you will be judged."



**

Christ is the Word of God. He speaks only truth, from love, from His Father, and there is no error in Him. Christ is Word of God who is alive - the living Word of God. Not the Bible (which never makes that claim about itself), not men, not religion, not religious tracts. The bible does, however, identity the actual Word of God: Christ Jaheshua. His words come first, His example is the example we are to be following. He is the One God tells us to listen TO. So that is what I do.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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Re: Judging and punishing others

Post #52

Post by Eloi »

tam wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 9:57 pm Peace to you,
Jesus' words cannot be ignored, and neither should Paul's, as he was hand-picked by Jesus to witness of him and his Father.
Everyone called by Christ is handpicked by Him to be His witnesses (...)
Not everyone who says he was "handpicked by him to witness of him and his Father" really was. No person can say that without others verify it some way, otherwise it is just a figment of the imagination of that person ...

Luke 13:25 When the householder gets up and locks the door, you will stand outside knocking at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ But in answer he will say to you: ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26 Then you will start saying, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our main streets.’ 27 But he will say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from. Get away from me, all you workers of unrighteousness!’

Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’

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Re: Judging and punishing others

Post #53

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 3:25 am
Purple Knight wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 11:12 pmI'd like to put charity into the way I look at this. If someone can't harmonise something, they have to pick one.
No, I disagree. . If someone can't harmonise they should imho, wait for enlightenment.
I can understand both of these sentiments.

If you cannot harmonize something, then go with Christ. Always. He is the One to whom God has told us to listen.

If you are waiting on Christ and God to reveal to you the truth of a matter that you are unsure of (whether you can harmonize it or not), then go with Christ. Always. He is the One to whom God has told us to listen.


This is a very important point because it is these deflections, these seemingly minor deviations from scripture (that one verse here, I don't accept as inspired. That one book there I reject. Paul was mistaken here or there...) that takes a group or an individual slightly off course and effectively creates a "denomination" (even if , as is the case of some posters here, it is a denomination with a membership of just one person who posts on the internet and claims Jesus is speaking to them)

No, that's not true. Denominations are formed when one person (or more than one) breaks away from one 'daughter' because they disagree with some doctrine or teaching... but instead of coming to and remaining in Christ and Christ alone, they just end up forming/producing yet another 'daughter' (denomination). That denomination then carries some of the teachings/baggage from the former denomination (and so on and so on).

Your suggestion/deflection above does not align with the reality that most denominations (catholic/protestant/evangelical ones) continue to teach and believe that the bible is the Word of God and inspired and inerrant (even though it makes no such claims about itself). So it does not make sense to attempt to 'pin' that on a person(s) who does not accept the entire bible as inspired.

One of the,many reasons the Jehovahs Witnesses hold the belief their religion stands out as the only true one, is precisely because they believe they are the only people that never reject a single scripture (scribal errors apart*) as being erroneous just because it is not immediately apparent how to harmonize it with the whole. * there must be evidence of scribal (copyist) error or interpolation before coming to this conclusion
Yeah, I don't know why you continue to think or assert that this is unique to your sect. Much of Christendom believes the exact same thing, including Catholics, Protestants and Evangelicals. That is a teaching that has been passed down from one daughter to another, and yet, it is not even a biblical teaching. Go figure.
What we do not say is "Paul got it wrong" because we hold that Paul was writing under inspiration and therefore we are reading not Paul's words but God's word spoken through Paul.


Sometimes Paul wrote as commanded by the Lord.

Sometimes Paul wrote according to his own judgment, even clearly stating that something was a command from himself, not the Lord.

1 Corinthians 7.
We believe that in order to claim to have "the truth" one must always accept the interpretation that harmonizes passages.


Who taught, if you want to have 'the truth', accept the interpretation that harmonizes the passages? Did Christ teach it? Or is that your own idea?

Because here is what Christ said:

“If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples. Then you will know the Truth, and the Truth will set you free.” John 8:31, 32.




Peace again to you both, and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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Re: Judging and punishing others

Post #54

Post by 2timothy316 »

tam wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 11:22 pm Peace to you,
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 3:25 am
Purple Knight wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 11:12 pmI'd like to put charity into the way I look at this. If someone can't harmonise something, they have to pick one.
No, I disagree. . If someone can't harmonise they should imho, wait for enlightenment.
I can understand both of these sentiments.

If you cannot harmonize something, then go with Christ. Always. He is the One to whom God has told us to listen.
Yet Christ never wrote down a single word of the Bible. Are you hearing voices again Tam? Or was it dreams? I can't remember all the ways you claim Jesus speaks to you. Odd, all of the people that make such a claim do not teach the same things and most of the time don't really like each other.

However, it has been recorded that Jesus referred to the Bible of his day some 100 times. None of it which he wrote. So Jesus is not the only source through which Almighty God speaks. If that is good enough for the Christ why isn't it good enough for us? If we are to 'follow closely Jesus' footsteps' and he used scriptures that he didn't write and he never discredited a single word of the Hebrew scriptures, why break away from the example Jesus set? Or did Jesus tell you stop. How can we trust that Jesus actually speaks to you when you do few of the things he is recorded doing himself.
Last edited by 2timothy316 on Tue May 17, 2022 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Judging and punishing others

Post #55

Post by JehovahsWitness »

2timothy316 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:47 am
However, it has been recorded that Jesus referred to the Bible of his day some 100 times. None of it which he wrote. So Jesus is not the only source through which Almighty God speaks. If that is good enough for the Christ why isn't it good enough for us? If we are to 'follow closely Jesus' footsteps' and he used scriptures that he didn't write and he never discredited a single word of the Hebrew scriptures, why break away from the example Jesus set?
For those that do not believe in organised religion they HAVE to reject certain scriptures since the first century congregations were clearly depicted in the bible canon as an organised body of worshippers that had unity of belief based on their acceptance of the teachings of Christ handed down to them through the Apostles.

They "Christ talks to me I don't need a religion" Christians have a curious acceptance that Christ built a church but reject the idea that (like a body) the church is made up of members that all function as one. These "floating" / me-myself-and-I "/ lone Christians pay lip service to Jesus words to his Apostles to stick together but in reality are a de facto "denomination" of one; the very antithesis of what Christ (the real one not the one talking to people in their living rooms) said he wanted.





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Re: Judging and punishing others

Post #56

Post by tam »

Peace to you, and to you all,
2timothy316 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:47 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 3:25 am
Purple Knight wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 11:12 pmI'd like to put charity into the way I look at this. If someone can't harmonise something, they have to pick one.
No, I disagree. . If someone can't harmonise they should imho, wait for enlightenment.
I can understand both of these sentiments.

If you cannot harmonize something, then go with Christ. Always. He is the One to whom God has told us to listen.
Yet Christ never wrote down a single word of the Bible.
And what point are you trying to make here?

Are you hearing voices again Tam?


Voices, no.

The voice of the Good Shepherd, yes. John 10:3 -4, 14-16, 27-28.

Not only did Christ SAY that His sheep would listen to His voice, that He would call them by name, the bible that you claim to follow SHOWS Christ continuing to speak and teach His sheep and them listening to His voice and obeying His command (and this after His resurrection and ascension). Ananias, Paul, Peter, John (of Patmos), Philip. And you don't suppose Abraham read it on a scroll that he should come out from one land and enter into a new land, do you? Of course not. Abraham heard and obeyed <- this is his faith.
Or was it dreams?
Acts 2:17, 18
I can't remember all the ways you claim Jesus speaks to you.


Jaheshua (meaning JAH SAVES), the Chosen One of JAH, is the Good Shepherd who speak and teaches and leads His sheep into all truth. He is a living being, and living beings speak.
Odd, all of the people that make such a claim do not teach the same things and most of the time don't really like each other.
Why do you continue to say this as if it has not already been refuted. Do you not see the hypocrisy in your words here?

Just insert religion for people to see it (if you can):

All of the religions that claim to be the true religion do not teach the same things and most of the time don't really like each other.

Yet, you still believe there is one true religion.

Therefore, this excuse that you keep putting out there as a reason to reject the truth that Christ does speak and His sheep do listen to His voice - is bogus. Otherwise, using the same reasoning, you would have to reject ALL religion.

Christ warned us there would be false teachers, false prophets, false christs. This is why we are told to remain in HIS word, to obey HIM, and to TEST the inspired expressions.
However, it has been recorded that Jesus referred to the Bible of his day some 100 times.
The scriptures, sure. See also John 5:39, 40.
None of it which he wrote. So Jesus is not the only source through which Almighty God speaks.


Hebrews 1:1-2.
If that is good enough for the Christ why isn't it good enough for us?


If what is good enough for the Christ?

You think HE needed the scriptures? Many of the scriptures were given from God through Christ (the Word of God), or are His words (such as at Proverbs 8), and/or are testifying to Him (John 5:39; Luke 24:44-45). He did not need the scriptures to know what was true.

The fact remains that the bible is not the word of God. The bible never makes that claim about itself. But the bible does record who the One is, who is the Word of God: Christ Jaheshua. The LIVING Word of God. The bible also records that Christ speaks and His sheep listen to His voice <- yet you do not believe it.

I do believe Him and I testify to the truth of His words.

If we are to 'follow closely Jesus' footsteps' and he used scriptures that he didn't write and he never discredited a single word of the Hebrew scriptures, why break away from the example Jesus set?


Did you miss all the scriptural and/or biblical references that have continued to be posted in support of the testimony that I give, so that you and/or others can SEE that it is indeed IN what is written?

Do you not recall that Christ said on numerous occasions 'woe to you scribes'? Do you not recall that Christ said Moses gave Israel the law on divorce - not because it was true from the beginning - but because their hearts were HARD? THEN He proceeded to tell them what WAS true from the beginning. What about His teaching when the woman was brought to him for adultery, to be stoned... "Let the one who is without sin cast the first stone"? What about the scriptures themselves at Jeremiah 8:8:

"How can you say 'we are wise for we have the law of [the LORD]', when actually the LYING PEN of the scribes has handled it falsely?"

MORE THAN EVEN THOSE - do you think Christ only knew His Father through the scriptures?

AND EVEN MORE: Did Christ EVER ONCE say "if you know the scriptures, then you know my Father as well?"

OR DID HE INSTEAD TEACH: "if you know ME, you know my Father as well."
How can we trust that Jesus actually speaks to you when you do few of the things he is recorded doing himself.

(Jaheshua, meaning JAH saves. Not "Jesus".)


A - Why care more about if Christ speaks to me... rather than caring if Christ speaks, at all? I am just a servant and witness TO Christ. Look and listen TO HIM.

B - If you want to know if something is true and from Christ, then ask Him. If you do not have them and wish for them, ASK for ears to hear. You can (and should) also test the inspired expressions - always taking the matter to Christ Himself of course. Hold everything up against the Light. Test against Christ (the Truth and the Light), and test against love (since God is love). But if I have not shared anything that contradicts Christ or love, then why do you take issue with it? Christ speaking is SUPPORTED by what is written. It is also supported by love (do you not speak to those you love, teach them, guide them, discipline them, comfort them)?



May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear, so as to know the truth of this (or any other) matter from the One who IS the Truth: Christ Jaheshua. And may anyone who thirsts and anyone who wishes, "Come! Take the FREE gift of the water of Life!"

(which water is holy spirit, poured out from Christ to whomever He chooses, and given to Him without end from His Father)


Peace again to you and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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Re: Judging and punishing others

Post #57

Post by 2timothy316 »

[Replying to tam in post #56]

None of this is proof that you or anyone else can hear the voice of Jesus.

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Re: Judging and punishing others

Post #58

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:13 am
2timothy316 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:47 am
However, it has been recorded that Jesus referred to the Bible of his day some 100 times. None of it which he wrote. So Jesus is not the only source through which Almighty God speaks. If that is good enough for the Christ why isn't it good enough for us? If we are to 'follow closely Jesus' footsteps' and he used scriptures that he didn't write and he never discredited a single word of the Hebrew scriptures, why break away from the example Jesus set?
For those that do not believe in organised religion they HAVE to reject certain scriptures since the first century congregations were clearly depicted in the bible canon as an organised body of worshippers that had unity of belief based on their acceptance of the teachings of Christ handed down to them through the Apostles.
Are you suggesting that John 10:27 is not a teaching of Christ handed down by the apostles?

They "Christ talks to me I don't need a religion" Christians have a curious acceptance that Christ built a church but reject the idea that (like a body) the church is made up of members that all function as one.
If you are referring to me, the above is untrue. The Church IS a body - it is the body of Christ - made up of people (members) who are in Christ, with Christ as their Head. Listening to Him, following Him, obeying Him and His directions.

Surely you are not suggesting Christ is incapable of leading and directing and teaching His Church? How did Ananias know to go to Saul/Paul? No apostle told him. Christ told him, and Ananias listened. How did Phillip know to go to the Ethiopian? No (other) apostle told him. The Ethiopian was not on Phillip's 'route' in some door to door witnessing. No. Christ told him to go to the Ethiopian, and Phillip listened.




Peace again.
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Re: Judging and punishing others

Post #59

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
2timothy316 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 2:02 pm [Replying to tam in post #56]

None of this is proof that you or anyone else can hear the voice of Jesus.
Considering that you claim to believe the bible, should it not be proof to you that Christ (Jaheshua) does speak and that His sheep do listen to His voice?


Peace again.
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Re: Judging and punishing others

Post #60

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 2:05 pm Peace to you,
2timothy316 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 2:02 pm [Replying to tam in post #56]

None of this is proof that you or anyone else can hear the voice of Jesus.
Considering that you claim to believe the bible, should it not be proof to you that Christ (Jaheshua) does speak and that His sheep do listen to His voice?


Peace again.
He continues to "speak" through what is already written in Jehovah's Word, the Bible, as well as his answering of the prayers of the governing body that asks of Jehovah what His will is concerning all matters.

True Peace.

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