Judging and punishing others

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Rose2020
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Judging and punishing others

Post #1

Post by Rose2020 »

1 Corinthians Chapter 5 .

Surely Paul did not mean physical harm should be meted out to a known sinner by his brethren?
I take this chapter to mean if a person is obviously a bad influence, he ought to be made to leave. After all God is the true judge. Yet such cruelty has been exercised over the centuries, by taking the words in the Bible as a license to beat, torture and kill.

To apply Paul's teachings to our lives, I would say simply dissociate from those who are a corrupting influence, but do not be cruel and even murderous yourself.
To me, Jesus always taught with love. Paul knew that - he did not personally harm anyone did he?

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Re: Judging and punishing others

Post #41

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 11:26 pm
tam wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 11:20 pm Do not judge lest you be judged... this is clear.
So basically you are saying there is no point in looking to see if you have misunderstood something,
Now what makes you think I have not already done so? Or that I have not already taken this (or any other matter) TO my Lord?

This is not even the first (or even second) time we have had this conversation.
that nobody can harmonize the two scriptures and that one of the passages must be rejected as erroneous (because if somebody is wrong its not you, it's Paul)?
If I say something that contradicts Christ, then I am the one who is wrong. Same goes for anyone else who contradicts Christ (including Paul, even including the apostles).
Let me ask you a few of questions:


Did Jesus mention the word SIN in Matthew 7:1?
It is not in the text. Here is the context:

“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

What did Jesus mean by instructing disciples call Witnesses to testify in Matthew 18?
To establish a matter with two or three witnesses, to help your brother see their wrongdoing (if indeed there has been a wrongdoing), and hopefully correct it. Not in judgment, but in peace. Blessed are the peacemakers, yes?

Is it possible in the two verses Jesus was not speaking about judging in the same sense (context)?
Matt 18 gives instructions on what to do if your brother sins against you (though again, as stated to Purple Knight earlier in the thread, we are also free to simply forgive and show mercy to the person who wrongs us - in fact, we must forgive if we want to also BE forgiven.) Matt 18 is not about judging or holding judicial committees and sentencing a person to something. It is about if your brother sins against you (as is made clear in the text and a little further one when Peter asks Christ how many times he must forgive a brother who sins against him.)

Step 1:

If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.

Step 2:

But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.

Step 3:

If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church.

And the Church is the Body of Christ, the people in Christ. (Not a few men, not 'elders', not some judicial committee behind closed doors. Not even Paul suggested such a thing.)

Now you are the body of Christ, and each of you is a member of it. 1Corinth 12:27

And God put everything under His feet and made Him head over everything for the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all. Ephesians 1:22, 23


Step 4:

And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

(This does not mean expel them from the congregation, or treat them as though dead, or do not even say a 'hello' to them; that is not how Christ taught us to treat Gentiles and tax collectors, that is not how Christ taught us to treat even our enemies.)
Could it be that Jesus was not speaking in the absolute?


Do not judge, lest you be judged.

I'm not compromising His words or watering them down. He meant what He said. I believe Him.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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Re: Judging and punishing others

Post #42

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 12:32 am

Now you are the body of Christ, and each of you is a member of it. 1Corinth 12:27

And God put everything under His feet and made Him head over everything for the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all. Ephesians 1:22, 23

Thank you for refering to Paul's writings, but there is no need for you to do anything you hate ....
tam wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 2:36 pm... I hate to put Paul's words up when Christ's words should be enough. ....
tam wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 10:38 pmThere are erroneous verses that should not be obeyed ...
tam wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 10:00 pm... Luke is not inspired/scripture. ..."John" is also not inspired (not given/received in spirit)

I wouldn't anyone to do something they feel uncomfortable with. Have a wonderful weekend,

Goodbye,


PS: Peace to You!
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat May 14, 2022 3:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Judging and punishing others

Post #43

Post by JehovahsWitness »

DID JESUS PROHIBIT ALL JUDGING*?

No he did not. Jesus was not speaking in the absolute since to do so would contradict his own words at Matthew 18 where he gave instructions of what should be done if one of his church members sinned and failed to listen to exhortations. The members of the congregation could not decide (judge) whether Jesus' final directives should or should not be applied if judgement was absolutely prohibited.

* To judge is to assess action or information and decide what to do.


WHAT DID JESUS MEAN WHEN HE SAID STOP JUDGING?

In Matthew 7 verse 1, as was his custom, Jesus was providing a guiding principle not making an absolute rule. He was not warning against all forms of Judicial committee but against an overly critical and condemnatory attitude.

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

We have rather to remember that our Lord here, as elsewhere, gives principles rather than rules, and embodies the principle in a rule which, because it cannot be kept in the letter, forces us back upon the spirit. What is forbidden is the censorious judging temper, eager to find faults and condemn men for them, suspicious of motives, detecting, let us say, for example, in controversy, and denouncing, the faintest shade of heresy. [...] Briefly, we may say:—(1.) Judge no man unless it be a duty to do so. (2.) As far as may be, judge the offence, and not the offender. (3.) Confine your judgment to the earthly side of faults, and leave their relation to God, to Him who sees the heart. (4.) Never judge at all without remembering your own sinfulness, and the ignorance and infirmities which may extenuate the sinfulness of others.



RELATED POSTS
Are Christians authorised to judge others?
viewtopic.php?p=1077525#p1077525

Did Jesus prohibit all judging?
viewtopic.php?p=1077597#p1077597
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Re: Judging and punishing others

Post #44

Post by 2timothy316 »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 10:45 pm
tam wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 10:38 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 10:05 pm
So, just to clarify, you believe it is possible that there are erroneous verses in the bible that should properly be ignored?
There are erroneous verses that should not be obeyed, yes.
DULY NOTED: I'll try and remember that in future.




JW
As I said many times there are few here that actually believe the Bible is the Word of God and they only listen to themselves. This is where the 'God talks to me' doctrine trumps what the Bible says all to serve themselves. Sad.

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Re: Judging and punishing others

Post #45

Post by Purple Knight »

2timothy316 wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 4:47 pmHowever, lets say one of these people came to a meeting with the intent to disrupt the meeting. Not just trying to talk to people but truly disturbing the peace. Shouting insults during the meeting or even assaulting others. In that case Romans 13:1, 2 will be considered. If the person will not leave as you say, then they will be removed by the local authorities. Sad to say, I have read reports of this happening but they are very very rare.
That's all I mean. Eventually, in the worst case, if someone is doing something really really bad, somebody has to put their hands on somebody, and that's not turning the other cheek. I agree that you must do this and that it is right. Otherwise, you would not be able to have Kingdom Halls, if everyone was simply allowed to disrupt them and punch the Christians within.

Now, JW makes a great case and he has examples that the Church leadership may in fact judge people and those in their flocks ought to listen. He's also right that it is more admirable to try to find harmony than dismiss something (however in the case of a conflict, Jesus > Paul).

But here is my harmony:

The not judging extends to everyone. It extends to everyone so far that when your Church leadership judges, you ought to listen to them and not judge them for judging, which they ought not to be doing but you're not really supposed to notice that they are doing something they ought not to do.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 2:05 pmThere is no mention in scripture of "making anyone leave" so, anyone, even disfellowshipped /shunned ex-members, (even apostates) can attend public services as long as they are not dangerous and do not disrupt the proceedings.
Well, what if they do disrupt the proceedings? I imagine you would make somebody leave if they were selling drugs and everyone knew it. Eventually, in a scenario where that person is bad enough, somebody's going to have to put their hands on him. Eventually, when the chips are down, peace is only preserved by the threat of force. In a good case scenario, that force is never needed, but it's always present.
2timothy316 wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 7:57 am As I said many times there are few here that actually believe the Bible is the Word of God and they only listen to themselves. This is where the 'God talks to me' doctrine trumps what the Bible says all to serve themselves. Sad.
I'd like to put charity into the way I look at this. If someone can't harmonise something, they have to pick one.

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Re: Judging and punishing others

Post #46

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
2timothy316 wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 7:57 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 10:45 pm
tam wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 10:38 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 10:05 pm
So, just to clarify, you believe it is possible that there are erroneous verses in the bible that should properly be ignored?
There are erroneous verses that should not be obeyed, yes.
DULY NOTED: I'll try and remember that in future.




JW
As I said many times there are few here that actually believe the Bible is the Word of God and they only listen to themselves. This is where the 'God talks to me' doctrine trumps what the Bible says all to serve themselves. Sad.
Let's break this down shall we?
As I said many times there are few here that actually believe the Bible is the Word of God
First, I don't think that is true (unless you are counting atheists/non-believers, but that would be expected, would it not?) Much/most of Christendom believes that the bible is the Word of God. This is not unique or unusual in Christendom. This is just a traditional teaching of men and I'm pretty sure it is a core doctrine among MANY denominations, including your own. Of course, the bible makes no such claim about itself; nor did Christ teach it. Christ DID say something about people searching the scriptures for eternal life INSTEAD OF coming to HIM for life.

You pore over the Scriptures because you presume that by them you possess eternal life. These are the very words that testify about Me, yet you refuse to come to Me to have life. John 5:39, 40


The ACTUAL and TRUE Word of God is CHRIST. As the bible also attests:

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14

He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. Rev 19:13

Christ is the LIVING Word of the LIVING God. The Word who speaks, who continues to teach, and whose sheep HE SAID would listen to His voice. Even though many/most don't believe Him. Instead, many listen to men/leaders who interpret His words AWAY and claim He does not speak and no one hears Him; men who by their own admission DO NOT hear His voice and so COULD NOT HAVE learned this erroneous teaching from Him. It is THEIR OWN interpretation. It CAN'T be anything other than their OWN interpretation because they DO NOT hear His voice. Since it is their own interpretation, these are the ones listening to THEMSELVES.

Can you not see that?


From the thread, Is the Bible the inerrant Word of God?:

viewtopic.php?p=927265#p927265


and they only listen to themselves.


See above for more on that.

But this is also an unfounded accusation (at least as it pertains to me; I won't speak for anyone else). I have said that I listen to Christ.

Who are you listening to?
This is where the 'God talks to me' doctrine trumps what the Bible says all to serve themselves.


A - Christ is the One who speaks (and whose voice His sheep hear). God speaks to us through His Son (His Word). And Christ said that His sheep would listen to His voice, that He had more sheep to call, that He would call them by name, and that these TOO would listen to His voice.


B - No doubt there are some who do what you claim. But that does not mean that Christ does not speak, or that we should not exercise faith and listen to Him, as God has said.

C - What 'trumping' are you referring to and how does it serve oneself? I'm just trying to get a sense of what you mean with your accusation. Thanks.



Peace again to you and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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Re: Judging and punishing others

Post #47

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Purple Knight wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 11:12 pm That's all I mean. Eventually, in the worst case, if someone is doing something really really bad, somebody has to put their hands on somebody, and that's not turning the other cheek..

Jesus did not say a Christian could not touch anyone; there is no such bible rule, so I cannot see how this passage would be violated restraining someone from who poses a physical danger or escorting someone off private property by force if need be.

Purple Knight wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 11:12 pmWell, what if they do disrupt the proceedings?
They would be asked to leave. And if they refused to leave we would call the police. And if they repeated this behaviour we would seek a restrainjng order. And if they violated a retraining order we would prosecute and they could see if they would still get on the premise from a prison cell.
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Re: Judging and punishing others

Post #48

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Purple Knight wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 11:12 pmI'd like to put charity into the way I look at this. If someone can't harmonise something, they have to pick one.
No, I disagree. . If someone can't harmonise they should imho, wait for enlightenment.

This is a very important point because it is these deflections, these seemingly minor deviations from scripture (that one verse here, I don't accept as inspired. That one book there I reject. Paul was mistaken here or there...) that takes a group or an individual slightly off course and effectively creates a "denomination" (even if , as is the case of some posters here, it is a denomination with a membership of just one person who posts on the internet and claims Jesus is speaking to them)
One of the,many reasons the Jehovahs Witnesses hold the belief their religion stands out as the only true one, is precisely because they believe they are the only people that never reject a single scripture (scribal errors apart*) as being erroneous just because it is not immediately apparent how to harmonize it with the whole.
* there must be evidence of scribal (copyist) error or interpolation before coming to this conclusion


If we cannot see the way to harmonize passaages at any given time we still accept it as true and wait for God's guidance. What we do not say is "Paul got it wrong" because we hold that Paul was writing under inspiration and therefore we are reading not Paul's words but God's word spoken through Paul. JWs witness hold that if God did not want any given thought or instruction in the bible canon, he would have ensured it not be there. In short we believe the bible, ALL OF IT.

Point in hand, GOD tells us to have elders that judge wrongdoers in the congregation. GOD also told us to "stop judging". Both statements are we believe, true. We believe that in order to claim to have "the truth" one must always accept the interpretation that harmonizes passages. Since God is a God of order, such harmony MUST be possible. This is a fundamental truth for any truly bible based faith.
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Re: Judging and punishing others

Post #49

Post by 2timothy316 »

Purple Knight wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 11:12 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 4:47 pmHowever, lets say one of these people came to a meeting with the intent to disrupt the meeting. Not just trying to talk to people but truly disturbing the peace. Shouting insults during the meeting or even assaulting others. In that case Romans 13:1, 2 will be considered. If the person will not leave as you say, then they will be removed by the local authorities. Sad to say, I have read reports of this happening but they are very very rare.
That's all I mean. Eventually, in the worst case, if someone is doing something really really bad, somebody has to put their hands on somebody, and that's not turning the other cheek. I agree that you must do this and that it is right. Otherwise, you would not be able to have Kingdom Halls, if everyone was simply allowed to disrupt them and punch the Christians within.

Now, JW makes a great case and he has examples that the Church leadership may in fact judge people and those in their flocks ought to listen. He's also right that it is more admirable to try to find harmony than dismiss something (however in the case of a conflict, Jesus > Paul).

But here is my harmony:

The not judging extends to everyone. It extends to everyone so far that when your Church leadership judges, you ought to listen to them and not judge them for judging, which they ought not to be doing but you're not really supposed to notice that they are doing something they ought not to do.
There are different types of judging.

There is judging someone's eternal placement. (Dead or alive) This is a not something we should even be speculating on and certainly not something we would be threatening people with as something we know as a certainty. Saying, "You're going to be killed in Armageddon for what you did." This type of judging we shouldn't do and there should be no variation of such a judgement. The Bible is clear on this, that how we judge others is how we ourselves we will be judged. (Matthew 7:2)

There is judging was can do as individual as to who we will associate with and even who our family can associate with. For example: A person is a known thief and drug user, I have the judgment call on whether to allow that person to associate with me or my children. This type of judging has to do with protection. Because what is a judgement at its base but a choice and then action based on that choice.

In the JW religion elders have to make judgement calls much like a parent would have to do. If there is a person that is practicing a wrongdoing they have been given the responsibility to examine the report and then make judgment call as whether members of the congregation should associate with that person. Now some hate this idea. I personally support it. I'd even support if I was the receiving end of this judgment. Why? Because its an effort to correct me and it might save my life when God's judgement day comes. For Jehovah disciplines those He loves. (Hebrews 12:6)

There are other judgements that we all make everyday that have nothing to do with a person's eternal fate. Some are even required by law for some people to make a judgement. Like a doctor that must report suspected abuse to law enforcement. It doesn't matter if the doctor has first hand knowledge or not, by law it still must be reported.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 2:05 pmThere is no mention in scripture of "making anyone leave" so, anyone, even disfellowshipped /shunned ex-members, (even apostates) can attend public services as long as they are not dangerous and do not disrupt the proceedings.
Well, what if they do disrupt the proceedings? I imagine you would make somebody leave if they were selling drugs and everyone knew it. Eventually, in a scenario where that person is bad enough, somebody's going to have to put their hands on him. Eventually, when the chips are down, peace is only preserved by the threat of force. In a good case scenario, that force is never needed, but it's always present.
Then we'd call the cops. Perhaps even start getting people out of the building and have them go home to get them out of the way of danger. If the offending person assaults one of us, well then all bets are off. Escape if possible but if cornered and we have the ability to fight them off then we have that right to save our own life.
2timothy316 wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 7:57 am As I said many times there are few here that actually believe the Bible is the Word of God and they only listen to themselves. This is where the 'God talks to me' doctrine trumps what the Bible says all to serve themselves. Sad.
I'd like to put charity into the way I look at this. If someone can't harmonise something, they have to pick one.
The choice comes down to trust of the Bible. I personally will always pick the Bible because of this promise. "“I, Jehovah, am your God The One teaching you to benefit yourself, The One guiding you in the way you should walk. If only you would pay attention to my commandments! Then your peace would become just like a river And your righteousness like the waves of the sea." is 48:17, 18

People say that Jesus and Paul are at odds but they are not. Both scriptures below are in harmony. Jesus describes the steps. Paul describes the offenses. Both agree on the action to be taken if one is found to be in the wrong.
“If [the sinner] does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector.”​—Matthew 18:15-17.
"But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man." - 1 Cor 5:11

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Re: Judging and punishing others

Post #50

Post by onewithhim »

2timothy316 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 10:41 am
Purple Knight wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 11:12 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 4:47 pmHowever, lets say one of these people came to a meeting with the intent to disrupt the meeting. Not just trying to talk to people but truly disturbing the peace. Shouting insults during the meeting or even assaulting others. In that case Romans 13:1, 2 will be considered. If the person will not leave as you say, then they will be removed by the local authorities. Sad to say, I have read reports of this happening but they are very very rare.
That's all I mean. Eventually, in the worst case, if someone is doing something really really bad, somebody has to put their hands on somebody, and that's not turning the other cheek. I agree that you must do this and that it is right. Otherwise, you would not be able to have Kingdom Halls, if everyone was simply allowed to disrupt them and punch the Christians within.

Now, JW makes a great case and he has examples that the Church leadership may in fact judge people and those in their flocks ought to listen. He's also right that it is more admirable to try to find harmony than dismiss something (however in the case of a conflict, Jesus > Paul).

But here is my harmony:

The not judging extends to everyone. It extends to everyone so far that when your Church leadership judges, you ought to listen to them and not judge them for judging, which they ought not to be doing but you're not really supposed to notice that they are doing something they ought not to do.
There are different types of judging.

There is judging someone's eternal placement. (Dead or alive) This is a not something we should even be speculating on and certainly not something we would be threatening people with as something we know as a certainty. Saying, "You're going to be killed in Armageddon for what you did." This type of judging we shouldn't do and there should be no variation of such a judgement. The Bible is clear on this, that how we judge others is how we ourselves we will be judged. (Matthew 7:2)

There is judging was can do as individual as to who we will associate with and even who our family can associate with. For example: A person is a known thief and drug user, I have the judgment call on whether to allow that person to associate with me or my children. This type of judging has to do with protection. Because what is a judgement at its base but a choice and then action based on that choice.

In the JW religion elders have to make judgement calls much like a parent would have to do. If there is a person that is practicing a wrongdoing they have been given the responsibility to examine the report and then make judgment call as whether members of the congregation should associate with that person. Now some hate this idea. I personally support it. I'd even support if I was the receiving end of this judgment. Why? Because its an effort to correct me and it might save my life when God's judgement day comes. For Jehovah disciplines those He loves. (Hebrews 12:6)

There are other judgements that we all make everyday that have nothing to do with a person's eternal fate. Some are even required by law for some people to make a judgement. Like a doctor that must report suspected abuse to law enforcement. It doesn't matter if the doctor has first hand knowledge or not, by law it still must be reported.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 2:05 pmThere is no mention in scripture of "making anyone leave" so, anyone, even disfellowshipped /shunned ex-members, (even apostates) can attend public services as long as they are not dangerous and do not disrupt the proceedings.
Well, what if they do disrupt the proceedings? I imagine you would make somebody leave if they were selling drugs and everyone knew it. Eventually, in a scenario where that person is bad enough, somebody's going to have to put their hands on him. Eventually, when the chips are down, peace is only preserved by the threat of force. In a good case scenario, that force is never needed, but it's always present.
Then we'd call the cops. Perhaps even start getting people out of the building and have them go home to get them out of the way of danger. If the offending person assaults one of us, well then all bets are off. Escape if possible but if cornered and we have the ability to fight them off then we have that right to save our own life.
2timothy316 wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 7:57 am As I said many times there are few here that actually believe the Bible is the Word of God and they only listen to themselves. This is where the 'God talks to me' doctrine trumps what the Bible says all to serve themselves. Sad.
I'd like to put charity into the way I look at this. If someone can't harmonise something, they have to pick one.
The choice comes down to trust of the Bible. I personally will always pick the Bible because of this promise. "“I, Jehovah, am your God The One teaching you to benefit yourself, The One guiding you in the way you should walk. If only you would pay attention to my commandments! Then your peace would become just like a river And your righteousness like the waves of the sea." is 48:17, 18

People say that Jesus and Paul are at odds but they are not. Both scriptures below are in harmony. Jesus describes the steps. Paul describes the offenses. Both agree on the action to be taken if one is found to be in the wrong.
“If [the sinner] does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector.”​—Matthew 18:15-17.
"But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man." - 1 Cor 5:11
Beautifully put, timothy. Jesus' words cannot be ignored, and neither should Paul's, as he was hand-picked by Jesus to witness of him and his Father.

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