Mike Vinson

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Sherlock Holmes

Mike Vinson

Post #1

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Several years ago I stumbled upon this man's website and spent some time exploring what he had to say.

He often emphasizes what he sees as the "dual" meanings of scripture, where we have a material, physical statement or prophecy but which has a spiritual meaning too.

For example this is his answer to a question someone asked about Armageddon being a "real" battle.

What is the Spiritual Significance of Armageddon?

In answering he quotes:
Rom 1:20 wrote:For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.
Which strikes me as insightful, that is the statement literally means that understanding of spiritual things is made understandable in scripture, by reference to material, made things.

So is there anything Vinson has wrong here? for examples are any of the answers to questions wrong? misguided?
Last edited by Sherlock Holmes on Fri May 13, 2022 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mike Vinson

Post #2

Post by Eloi »

Did you create this topic to debate about a whole other website?

As for the rest: it is true that the things written in the Bible have more than one way of being analyzed. When I read Bible stories, even when I have read them many times before, I often find new lessons or details that I hadn't noticed before.

The names of many abstract biblical concepts come from actual physical places, such as Gehenna, Armageddon, and others. "Armageddon" is literally Har-Magedon, meaning Mountain of Megiddo. This information taken from our Biblical Encyclopedia can be of interest about this name:

This name is directly associated with “the war of the great day of God the Almighty.” The term applies specifically to the condition, or situation, to which “the kings of the entire inhabited earth” are gathered in opposition to Jehovah and his Kingdom by Jesus Christ. In a number of versions it is rendered “Armageddon.” (Re 16:14, 16, AT; KJ; JB; RS; TEV) The name Har–Magedon, taken from Hebrew, means simply “Mountain of Megiddo.”

There does not appear to have been a literal place called “Mountain of Megiddo,” either inside or outside the Promised Land, before or during the days of the apostle John, who recorded the vision. Hence, Har–Magedon evidently draws its significance from the events associated with the ancient city of Megiddo.

Megiddo was situated a few miles SE of Mount Carmel, overlooking and dominating the Plain of Esdraelon (Jezreel) and controlling major N-S and E-W trade and military routes. Joshua first conquered this Canaanite city. (Jos 12:7, 8, 21) Near this site Jabin’s army under command of Sisera was later destroyed. Jehovah there employed natural forces to assist the Israelite army under Barak. The account reads: “Barak went descending from Mount Tabor with ten thousand men behind him. And Jehovah began to throw Sisera and all his war chariots and all the camp into confusion by the edge of the sword before Barak. Finally Sisera got down off the chariot and took to flight on foot. And Barak chased after the war chariots and the camp as far as Harosheth of the nations, so that all the camp of Sisera fell by the edge of the sword. Not as much as one remained.”—Jg 4:14-16.

From https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200001884

Sherlock Holmes

Re: Mike Vinson

Post #3

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

[Replying to Eloi in post #2]

Apologies. Yes I failed to make the topic a clear question, I just corrected that now.

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Re: Mike Vinson

Post #4

Post by Eloi »

You are saying "understanding of spiritual things is made understandable in scripture" is how you interpret this person's words.

And: what do you think about that? Is (the content of) your interpretation true?

Sherlock Holmes

Re: Mike Vinson

Post #5

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Eloi wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 12:27 pm You are saying "understanding of spiritual things is made understandable in scripture" is how you interpret this person's words.

And: what do you think about that? Is (the content of) your interpretation true?
I must have read Rom 1:20 a thousand times over the years but never quite saw it that way.

KJV
Rom 1:20 wrote:For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.
NIV
Rom 1:20 wrote:For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
I've always read that as meaning that God's existence and power are obvious when one looks at the creation.

But now I see it in a different way, that understanding "invisible things", "invisible qualities" - that is spiritual meaning, is understood by us, explained to us, using material, created things, because as Vinson says, we are material, fleshly.

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Re: Mike Vinson

Post #6

Post by Eloi »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 12:34 pm
Eloi wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 12:27 pm You are saying "understanding of spiritual things is made understandable in scripture" is how you interpret this person's words.

And: what do you think about that? Is (the content of) your interpretation true?
I must have read Rom 1:20 a thousand times over the years but never quite saw it that way.

KJV
Rom 1:20 wrote:For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.
NIV
Rom 1:20 wrote:For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
I've always read that as meaning that God's existence and power are obvious when one looks at the creation.

But now I see it in a different way, that understanding "invisible things", "invisible qualities" - that is spiritual meaning, is understood by us, explained to us, using material, created things, because as Vinson says, we are material, fleshly.
I am not sure if Rom. 1:20 have to do anything with the central point of your first post ... Maybe I still don't get what is the point or concepts involved in this thread.

I understand Rom.1:20 talks about God's qualities. Your original post is talking about a more general topic: Bible interpretation.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: Mike Vinson

Post #7

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

[Replying to Eloi in post #6]

The verse from Romans could be telling us that it is through the material created realm that we are enabled to understand the "invisible things", this is consistent with Christ's parable where a physical analogy is used to represent a spiritual idea.

The Greek word used here occurs only twice in the Bible, the other is Col 1:16:
For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
So this could be taken to mean that prophetic references to material concepts has a spiritual application not just a physical.

Consider:
"The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

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Re: Mike Vinson

Post #8

Post by theophile »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 11:58 am Several years ago I stumbled upon this man's website and spent some time exploring what he had to say.

He often emphasizes what he sees as the "dual" meanings of scripture, where we have a material, physical statement or prophecy but which has a spiritual meaning too.

For example this is his answer to a question someone asked about Armageddon being a "real" battle.

What is the Spiritual Significance of Armageddon?

In answering he quotes:
Rom 1:20 wrote:For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.
Which strikes me as insightful, that is the statement literally means that understanding of spiritual things is made understandable in scripture, by reference to material, made things.

So is there anything Vinson has wrong here? for examples are any of the answers to questions wrong? misguided?
I don't think Paul is giving us a key to unlock the spiritual meaning of biblical terms here (e.g., 'Armageddon'), if that is what you are asking.

Rather, this verse is specifically about understanding the power and nature of God. It says that the invisible aspects of God have been made plain from the beginning (/from what has been made), so we have no excuse for mucking it up.

Paul is basically saying you will know them by their fruits, and that we should reverse engineer from Gen 1 and what / how God makes there, in order to know / understand God.

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Re: Mike Vinson

Post #9

Post by Eloi »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 2:12 pm [Replying to Eloi in post #6]

The verse from Romans could be telling us that it is through the material created realm that we are enabled to understand the "invisible things", this is consistent with Christ's parable where a physical analogy is used to represent a spiritual idea.

The Greek word used here occurs only twice in the Bible, the other is Col 1:16:
For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
So this could be taken to mean that prophetic references to material concepts has a spiritual application not just a physical.

Consider:
"The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
The word "invisible" (in greek aoratos) is used also in Heb. 11:27 and 1 Tim. 1:17.

The terms "invisible" and "spiritual" are not identical. "Spiritual" and "mental" do not mean the same thing either.

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