A test to the "End of Times"

[Confused]

Ok, I know there have been many threads that address whether or not we are the generation to witness "Revelations" unravel. There are just as many debating whether Revelations is a true book of prophecy or not.

This thread is different: We will start out with listing the following criteria that will be accepted as truth, therefore may not be challenged in this thread,
1) The book of Revelations is a true account of what is to happen when man stands before God for the final judgement.

2) Any mentioning of events related to the "end of times" found in other books of the NT are also true accounts,

3) God exists, Christ exists, angels, demons, satan, etc....all exist.

4) For the sake of this thread, we will pick an arbitrary time period for the events leading up to the second coming of christ. We take into accounts of events that have happened over the past 10 years up to the present.

5) Revelations has not occurred in the past. We will assume we are still waiting.

Now, the debate:

Christ said that there were signs that would signify the beginning of the end.

1) What are the signs?

2) Has enough of the signs occurred for us to believe that we are indeed the generation to see Revelations come to life?

(Keep in mind, I am aware of how many generations could claim theirs was the generation to see this. But many of those predictions were based on only a few isolated events. What I want to know is if there are enough signs that have occurred over the past 10 years or occurring now that could lead one to believe that we are the final generation?)

[Confused]

no takers?

[micatala]

I guess I will make a couple of comments.

I should say I am in no way a student of prophecy. Of all the aspects of the Bible, I find the prophecy the least relevant and interesting. Perhaps this is simply because I haven't spent much time on trying to understand these passages.

However, even acknowledging that my opinion is not a particularly well-informed one, I will say a few things anyway.

It seems to me that prophecy, even when it is thought to have come true, rarely comes true in a way that people at the time or prior to that time would have expected. When Jesus came the first time, he did not act as most people were expecting, even those who were fervently expecting him and had been looking for the prophecies to be fulfilled. Even his closest disciples expected him to exercise some kind of political or otherwise 'tangible' or explicit power, particularly with respect to the Romans.

His death, even with the additional 'prophetic' comments that he made to his disciples, was entirely unexpected, even by them.

His teachings, many of them unorthodox and even counterintuitive, were not foreseen.


I think it is worth keeping these facts in mind as we think about Revelations. Even if Revelations is what many Christians today claim it is, and even if it is 'close' to being fulfilled, I doubt very much it will be fulfilled in the way they are expecting. I could easily see Jesus coming again and those who currently are most eager for it to occur completely missing it.

[Confused]

I guess I will make a couple of comments.

I should say I am in no way a student of prophecy. Of all the aspects of the Bible, I find the prophecy the least relevant and interesting. Perhaps this is simply because I haven't spent much time on trying to understand these passages.

However, even acknowledging that my opinion is not a particularly well-informed one, I will say a few things anyway.

It seems to me that prophecy, even when it is thought to have come true, rarely comes true in a way that people at the time or prior to that time would have expected. When Jesus came the first time, he did not act as most people were expecting, even those who were fervently expecting him and had been looking for the prophecies to be fulfilled. Even his closest disciples expected him to exercise some kind of political or otherwise 'tangible' or explicit power, particularly with respect to the Romans.

His death, even with the additional 'prophetic' comments that he made to his disciples, was entirely unexpected, even by them.

His teachings, many of them unorthodox and even counterintuitive, were not foreseen.


I think it is worth keeping these facts in mind as we think about Revelations. Even if Revelations is what many Christians today claim it is, and even if it is 'close' to being fulfilled, I doubt very much it will be fulfilled in the way they are expecting. I could easily see Jesus coming again and those who currently are most eager for it to occur completely missing it.

To be honest, you have anwered my post exactly as I was hoping someone would. Most Christians I know use the book of Revelations to convince people to turn to God. They use the tactic of fear. They say, worse case, you die and nothing happens. But what if Revelation happens in this apocalyptic nature tomorrow. What do you have to lose by believing. Would you not rather be one to be taken during the "rapture". Rather than be stuck on earth during the battle of good and evil. They point to all the catastrophic disasters as key indicators, the german pope, the new strains of diseases, famines etc.... All things that have always existed, but they use these to gain more followers. This tactic of fear only lasts for so long. A year or two later when nothing has happened, people start to lose faith. They are then left feeling conflicted to believeing "just in case" to just living life the best they can and hope its enough should a God exist. This reason alone is why my interest in Revelations exists. Because I would love for someone to actually study it in an analytical sense, unbiased, and see what they came up with. I don't have the qualifications to do so. But if anyone knows one who does, this is the place to announce it.

[micatala]

Most Christians I know use the book of Revelations to convince people to turn to God. They use the tactic of fear.

I think this is part of it, but that there are other aspects to the current 'Revelations' craze.

One is a sincere hope to see the coming of Jesus. Obviously, especially for more fundamentalist Christians who see this as a literal reality along the lines of what is written in Revelations, the idea of seeing Jesus 'personally' is beyond tremendous. The 'it's now the ninth inning and we're ahead and our guy is closing the game and our side is going to win' aspect to it is also compelling.

A bit more cynically, I think there is also an aspect of intentionally rallying people to a common vision, and thereby negating or stifling any dissenting voices. 'The sinners are going to get it now, and you don't want to have anything to do with them, now do you.'

It helps to achieve this if one 'raises the stakes' and having the world imminently coming to an end certainly raises the stakes. It is much easier to get people to buy into an 'us versus them' mentality in this situation.

To be fair, I think most Christians, even those who buy into the current last days craze, want to see as many people as possible 'saved.' However, they typically have a pretty narrow view of what it takes to get saved. You can't be a homosexual and be saved. You can't buy into the 'liberal lies of the devil' and be saved. You can't doubt or question the prophecy and be saved.

I hope I live long enough to see this subside; for people to realize that 'the generation' that saw the coming of the nation of Israel is not going to see 'Left Behind' become reality.

[Confused]

Most Christians I know use the book of Revelations to convince people to turn to God. They use the tactic of fear.

I think this is part of it, but that there are other aspects to the current 'Revelations' craze.

One is a sincere hope to see the coming of Jesus. Obviously, especially for more fundamentalist Christians who see this as a literal reality along the lines of what is written in Revelations, the idea of seeing Jesus 'personally' is beyond tremendous. The 'it's now the ninth inning and we're ahead and our guy is closing the game and our side is going to win' aspect to it is also compelling.

A bit more cynically, I think there is also an aspect of intentionally rallying people to a common vision, and thereby negating or stifling any dissenting voices. 'The sinners are going to get it now, and you don't want to have anything to do with them, now do you.'

It helps to achieve this if one 'raises the stakes' and having the world imminently coming to an end certainly raises the stakes. It is much easier to get people to buy into an 'us versus them' mentality in this situation.

To be fair, I think most Christians, even those who buy into the current last days craze, want to see as many people as possible 'saved.' However, they typically have a pretty narrow view of what it takes to get saved. You can't be a homosexual and be saved. You can't buy into the 'liberal lies of the devil' and be saved. You can't doubt or question the prophecy and be saved.

I hope I live long enough to see this subside; for people to realize that 'the generation' that saw the coming of the nation of Israel is not going to see 'Left Behind' become reality.

I agree to an extent. No holds barred, do you thing the book of Revelations has a place in the Bible. Is it authentic, regardless of the interpretation?