Who is a Christian?? !!

[oldbadger]

Before Covid I used to cycle around my local area and would visit chapels and churches which held tea'n'chat meetings. On one occasion I passed a Christian hall and saw a poster which read something like 'soup and chat', and I walked inside just as the event was commencing. A long table was set and many mid-aged and elderly folks sat around; I was guided to a place.

A very stern lady across the table fixed me in her gaze and an interrogation began:-
Who are you?
Hello I'm oldbadger.
Why have you come here?
I wanted to meet you, and the soup is interesting.
How did you know about this meeting?
I saw a big poster outside.
Do you walk in to any place because of posters?
Yes..... I often do.
Where else have you just walked in to?
Oh, lots of places. The Methodist church holds tea/biscuit meets on Saturday mornings.
She grunted what sounded like disapproval. I mentioned a few other meetings and then the room erupted.
I said....
Oh, and the Christian Spiritualists in T--------- offering healing and tea on Mondays at 1.30pm.

This stern lady exploded.
They are not Christians! They worship the Devil! All these evil people who pretend to be Christians...... Jesus warned us about you all! And that disgusting Halloween...... ............ well this carried on for minutes until she could be calmed down.

This has happened many times....... I once mentioned that we have JW Christian friends and we are pleased to let them park on our driveway when visiting homes in the area, and several Christians immediately pointed out that JWs are different, or not proper Christians......

There are many many differing churches and creeds, and so I wonder....... who is a proper Christian?

[oldbadger]

Is that what Jesus said?

I was asking exactly that myself.

MATTHEW 18: 16, 17

.... take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, regard him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Yeah...... I'm not very impressed by the above. I think that Matthew might have got that wrong.....maybe he wasn't there?

No. I've read that Jesus absolutely loved to eat and drink with publicans and he often travelled especially to meet and be with pagans, he regarded them as friends. So that doesn't work for me.

Now, if he had been reported as saying ,'...regard him as you would a priest'....... wow.... that really would have had some clout...for me.

[JehovahsWitness]

The Church would be those people who are in Christ...

Ok so if they are a body (a collection of humans) that work together, under a head. That's what we call an organisation: individuals all working together in unity under a common leadership. Call it a religion, call it the body, call it Gods organisation, call it Christensom...whatever your pet term...it all comes to the same thing.

The Church would be those people who are in Christ... so those in the 'man' category who are in Christ...

THE CHURCH - Christ - GOD

Deny it as you like but by your own definition...you are part of a religion

So you claim to be part of Gods (earthly) organisation/ the CHURCH (relgion)that Christ built

Jehovahs Witnesses claim the same.

But for you to say "Il not part of a religion, religion muddies the waters" ..its just me and Christ" ... contradicts what you have just said, you worship in unison with others (your spiritual brothers ) and you admit you are part of a body or united group of fellow believers. In that you are no different to Jehovah's Witnesses, you just prefer to stick with metaphor (bride , body)

[tam]

Peace to you,

The Church would be those people who are in Christ...

Ok so if they are a body (a collection of humans) that work together, under a head. That's what we call an organisation: individuals all working together in unity under a common leadership. Call it a religion, call it the body, call it Gods organisation, call it Christensom...whatever your pet term...it all comes to the same thing.

You can call it what you want, but you are part of an organized institutionalized religion. Same as the RCC is an organized institutionalized religion. Same as the LDS, and all the other sects and denominations out there.

I am not part of those, any of them, regardless of how many times you and yours try to tell me otherwise.

Regardless:

It is STILL not:

Man -> priests/elders/governing bodies/religion -> Christ -> God.

It is STILL:

Man <-> Christ <-> God

That 'chart' alone should show you the difference.

The Church would be those people who are in Christ... so those in the 'man' category who are in Christ...

THE CHURCH - Christ - GOD

Deny it as you like but by your own definition...you are part of a religion

That would be by your definition.

(And I did not replace 'man' with 'church' because not all men are part of the church, the bride, the body of Christ.)

Of course, your religion teaches that most of her members are NOT the Church/Bride/Body of Christ, right? That should ALSO tell you that there is a difference between being a member of a religion and being part of the Church that is the Body of Christ.

So you claim to be part of Gods (earthly) organisation/ the CHURCH (relgion)that Christ built

Jehovahs Witnesses claim the same.

See above.

But for you to say "Il not part of a religion, religion muddies the waters" ..its just me and Christ" ... contradicts what you have just said,

No, it contradicts what you are claiming what I have said. See above.

you worship in incision with others (your spiritual brothers )

I do not know what "worship in incision" means. I worship in spirit and in truth, as Christ said these are the kinds of worshipers the Father wants.

and you admit you are part of a body

The Body of Christ.

or united group of fellow believers.

There are many united groups of 'fellow believers' in the world (see various sects and denominations). But it means NOTHING if there are 10 or 100 or 8 million people all united with one another, all agreeing with one another... if they are not united with Christ.

In that you are no different to Jehovah's Witnesses, you just prefer stick with metaphor (bride , body)

See above for the differences 'in that'.

(And I prefer to stick with Christ, the Truth, the only One who can lead me into all truth).

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

You can call it what you want, but you are part of an organized institutionalized religion.

And you are part of a DISORGANISED one. We are both, however part of a religion!

Let the bible shred light on which type of religion Jesus built; but by his own words he built something, a body, a CHURCH, a religion. Are the men you identified as your fellow members made out of angel dust and wishes? No, the fellow members of your DISORGANISED body (read: group) are other humans just like the men and women in my religion. The only difference between your religion and mine is we are organised and yours is not.

You like it that way, you think thats the way it should be... fine! But please spare us the suggestion you are part of a "body" and we are part of a religion As if they are two different things - it is just a horse by another name.


Feel free to take your bible and prove you are not part of a religion.



JW

[tam]

Peace to you,

You can call it what you want, but you are part of an organized institutionalized religion.

And you are part of a DISORGANISED one.

This is a "grasping at straws" kind of statement, based on no evidence at all.

We are both, however part of a religion!

See previous post. Not just the first line, but the whole thing.

Because there is a difference between the Church and a religion. That difference is made especially clear in your own religion, where the majority of her members are taught that they are NOT members of the Body/Bride (which IS the Church). If you are not members of the BODY, how then are you members of the CHURCH? If you are not members of the CHURCH, but you ARE members of a religion, then clearly these are two different things!

Let the bible shred light on which type of religion Jesus built; but by his own words he built something, a body, a CHURCH, a religion.

He built His Church (on Himself, the Rock, the cornerstone). The Church IS the people with Christ as their Head.

I am not a member of a religion/organization/institution. I am a member of Christ.

It is like a husband and a wife (as Ephesians 5 attests). The wife (or bride of the bridegroom) is not an organization/institution/religion. She is a person, a bride, who is one with her husband, her head. Though in the case with Christ, she is many people (men and women, both).


For the rest of your statements (unless you have added more since I started responding), please see previous post.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

... there is a difference between the Church and a religion. ...
I am not a member of a religion ...

So you are saying Christ's church is not a religion? The bible says differently.

JAMES 1:27 - New Living Translation

Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring for orphans and widows in their distress and refusing to let the world corrupt you

Either Christs church is a religion as per James 1:27 and you are not in it (because by your'own admission you are not part of any religion) or you are right - the church is not a religion - and the bible is wrong.

Which is it?

[tam]

Peace to you,

... there is a difference between the Church and a religion. ...
I am not a member of a religion ...

So you are saying Christ's church is not a religion? The bible says differently.

JAMES 1:27 - New Living Translation

Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring for orphans and widows in their distress and refusing to let the world corrupt you

So you are not going to respond to the points/questions from my post (if you read them)? You are instead going to suggest that religion and church are interchangeable here? Synonymous?

If so, then the statement should also be able to be read as: 'pure and genuine church in the sight of God the Father means caring for orphans and widows in their distress and refusing to let the world corrupt you." ... AND... "pure and genuine Body of Christ ... means caring for orphans and widows..."... AND... "pure and genuine Bride... means caring for orphans and widows..."

Does that sound as though these words are all synonymous?

**

If more is needed,

First - it doesn't make sense. The Church is the people.

Second - that verse is obviously not describing an organized institutionalized religion. It is describing an action.

Third - it is interesting that this word being translated as 'religion' is only used 4 times in the entire New Testament that I can see (and never by Christ). Once it is used to describe an actual religion: Acts 26:5, where Paul is describing his time as a Pharisee, a strict sect in his former religion. Once it is translated as worship of angels (in a negative light). And of course twice from James, describing it as an action. Not as an organization. (Though James appears to be using the word to counter those who are claiming to be religious or pious, but who are not bothering to do the things that God approves: such as caring for widows and orphans.)

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon ... jv/tr/0-1/

Either Christs church is a religion as per James 1:27 and you are not in it (because by your'own admission you are not part of any religion) or you are right - the church is not a religion - and the bible is wrong.

Which is it?

See above and all previous posts on this subject.

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

Does that sound as though these words are all synonymous?

Yes of course ! Religion is not a place you go, it is what you are: religion is the discipline practiced by the people. The true worshippers are the religion and the true church is the religion: Yes absolutely they are synonymes. Now my question for you is (whatever you think it means) you say "religion muddies the waters", implying religion is bad, implying religion is negative , implying that you want nothing to do with religion ... do you want to modyfy that or do you want to double down and reject scripture (James 1:27) whatever you think the word means biblically?

Once you have admitted that you do in fact have a religion we will go back to your summary

THE CHURCH - Christ - GOD



And incorporate RELIGION in there.



JW

[tam]

Peace to you,

Does that sound as though these words are all synonymous?

Yes of course !

Seriously?

True Bride is caring for widows and orphans?

You think that is a proper sentence?

Bride is not a verb. James used religion as a verb. Not as an organization. Again, see all previous posts.

Religion is not a place you go, it is what you are:

So lets go back to the question I asked earlier that you ignored.

Because there is a difference between the Church and a religion. That difference is made especially clear in your own religion, where the majority of her members are taught that they are NOT members of the Body/Bride (which IS the Church). If you are not members of the BODY, how then are you members of the CHURCH? If you are not members of the CHURCH, but you ARE members of a religion, then clearly these are two different things!

religion is the discipline practiced by the people.

Are you going to tell me that you do not belong to an organized institutionalized religion?

The true worshippers are the religion and the true church is the religion: Yes absolutely they are synonymes.

You must also be able to insert Bride and Body (of Christ). Because the Church is the Bride; the Body of Christ.

Now my question for you is (whatever you think it means) you say "religion muddies the waters", implying religion is bad, implying religion is negative , implying that you want nothing to do with religion ... do you want to modyfy that or do you want to double down and reject scripture (James 1:27) whatever you think the word means biblically?

Oh, I answered your question in my previous posts. I cannot help it if you ignore most of the content.

Once you have admitted that you do in fact have a religion we will go back to your summary

That is not going to happen.

Regardless, you have done nothing to refute that summary of man <-> Christ <-> God.

It is STILL not:

Man -> priests/elders/governing bodies/religion -> Christ -> God.

It is STILL:

Man <-> Christ <-> God

Even if you were to replace man (at least those who are in Christ) with Church.



Peace again to you and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

James used religion as a verb

So is he "muddying the waters"? Are you still adverse to religion? 'I think it is evident that you will continue to refuse to accept only the parts of scripture you do not like and that there is little hope you will address what role religion plays in true worship.

But I have documented that you have admitted you belong to A CHURCH and that you and the fellow members of your church are not organised. We already know you reject what the Christian scriptures say as to how the TRUE church should be organised.


I might pick this up at a later date, but for now this discussion is over,



Goodbye,



JW