Public Prayer

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McCulloch
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Public Prayer

Post #1

Post by McCulloch »

One common feature of Christian worship is public prayer. Someone will lead the group in prayer to God.

Jesus taught against public prayer.
Matthew 6 wrote:[Jesus said, ]"When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
"But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.
"And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him. "
Question: Is there anywhere in the New Testament where public prayer is taught by example or precept?
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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McCulloch
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Post #2

Post by McCulloch »

The irony is that one of the most common forms of disobedience to this teaching relates to the same sermon.

Our father, who art in heaven Harold be thy name
...
and deliver us some e-mail
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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Re: Public Prayer

Post #3

Post by Goat »

McCulloch wrote:One common feature of Christian worship is public prayer. Someone will lead the group in prayer to God.

Jesus taught against public prayer.
Matthew 6 wrote:[Jesus said, ]"When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
"But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.
"And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him. "
Question: Is there anywhere in the New Testament where public prayer is taught by example or precept?
I think that is more along the lines of the motivation of doing prayer, rather than saying that prayer has to be done when no one was around. I don't see it as being totally 'literal' in that sense. I see it as a handsplap against those people who are very open about their apparent religious faith, as a status symbol, rather than honest prayer in worship.

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Madeline
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Post #4

Post by Madeline »

McCulloch wrote:The irony is that one of the most common forms of disobedience to this teaching relates to the same sermon.

Our father, who art in heaven Harold be thy name
...
and deliver us some e-mail
Cute McCulloch, LOL!!!

Click on the prayer emoticon to see the answer:[-o<

Love,
Madeline

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Re: Public Prayer

Post #5

Post by G-dspeed »

goat wrote:
McCulloch wrote:One common feature of Christian worship is public prayer. Someone will lead the group in prayer to God.

Jesus taught against public prayer.
Matthew 6 wrote:[Jesus said, ]"When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
"But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.
"And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him. "
Question: Is there anywhere in the New Testament where public prayer is taught by example or precept?
I think that is more along the lines of the motivation of doing prayer, rather than saying that prayer has to be done when no one was around. I don't see it as being totally 'literal' in that sense. I see it as a handsplap against those people who are very open about their apparent religious faith, as a status symbol, rather than honest prayer in worship.
goat is right...

its all about the heart motivation...do you want to be seen by men? or do you want to pray with an ernest heart. God the Father asks that for the sake of an intimate 1on1 relationship, that we take time to visit our prayer closets. in our closets we can be more expressive of ourselves towards God because its a safe enviroment away from eyes who would otherwise not understand and be afraid of such a thing.
but that does not exclude forever the public prayer of gathered beleivers or just the voice of one "crying in the wilderness" of sorts. Prayer is communication to God as a Father and for example you would not only speak to your father at home in a closed room, but freely talk to him when you wish...same thing with God be it aloud or not.
Jesus by example prayed publically all throughout His ministry, even on the cross....Jesus was always talking to God.
as far as "our Father who art in heaven" goes...a vain repition is more of a chant after a while and loses all meaning, becoming a drudgery. imagine if you talked to your earthly father that way? No you dont the way you talk to your parents is casual always changing in topic and discussion. So as it should be with God. the Lords "our Father prayer" is a guide line to intimacey as it first points out some facts about God that may otherwise be overlooked and teaches us to address certain needs above others "daily bread", "forgiving tresspasses", and "lead us not into temptation". More or less Jesus asks by the example of the Lord's prayer that we dont forget those things mentioned there in.

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Re: Public Prayer

Post #6

Post by Confused »

JCRepresentitive wrote:
goat wrote:
McCulloch wrote:One common feature of Christian worship is public prayer. Someone will lead the group in prayer to God.

Jesus taught against public prayer.
Matthew 6 wrote:[Jesus said, ]"When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
"But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.
"And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him. "
Question: Is there anywhere in the New Testament where public prayer is taught by example or precept?
I think that is more along the lines of the motivation of doing prayer, rather than saying that prayer has to be done when no one was around. I don't see it as being totally 'literal' in that sense. I see it as a handsplap against those people who are very open about their apparent religious faith, as a status symbol, rather than honest prayer in worship.
goat is right...

its all about the heart motivation...do you want to be seen by men? or do you want to pray with an ernest heart. God the Father asks that for the sake of an intimate 1on1 relationship, that we take time to visit our prayer closets. in our closets we can be more expressive of ourselves towards God because its a safe enviroment away from eyes who would otherwise not understand and be afraid of such a thing.
but that does not exclude forever the public prayer of gathered beleivers or just the voice of one "crying in the wilderness" of sorts. Prayer is communication to God as a Father and for example you would not only speak to your father at home in a closed room, but freely talk to him when you wish...same thing with God be it aloud or not.
Jesus by example prayed publically all throughout His ministry, even on the cross....Jesus was always talking to God.
as far as "our Father who art in heaven" goes...a vain repition is more of a chant after a while and loses all meaning, becoming a drudgery. imagine if you talked to your earthly father that way? No you dont the way you talk to your parents is casual always changing in topic and discussion. So as it should be with God. the Lords "our Father prayer" is a guide line to intimacey as it first points out some facts about God that may otherwise be overlooked and teaches us to address certain needs above others "daily bread", "forgiving tresspasses", and "lead us not into temptation". More or less Jesus asks by the example of the Lord's prayer that we dont forget those things mentioned there in.
Ok, I see your opinion. And I see Goats opinion. But they are just that- opinions. You are both taking liberties with interpretation. The question asked wasn't what do you think this passage means. It asks if there is any place in the NT that supports open prayer? I can't find one in which there even mentions group prayer or prayer in a church.
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What we do for others and the world remains
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Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.

-Harvey Fierstein

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Re: Public Prayer

Post #7

Post by McCulloch »

goat wrote:I think that is more along the lines of the motivation of doing prayer, rather than saying that prayer has to be done when no one was around. I don't see it as being totally 'literal' in that sense. I see it as a handsplap against those people who are very open about their apparent religious faith, as a status symbol, rather than honest prayer in worship.
Certainly Jesus does address motivation.
JCRepresentitive wrote:its all about the heart motivation...do you want to be seen by men? or do you want to pray with an ernest heart.
If you pray and no want to be seen by humans, then why lead others in prayer?
BiblePath.Com. wrote:Many professing Christians, if they were honest, would have to admit that they pray to be heard of men. Jesus said that the people of His day love to pray standing in the synagogues. Both a time and place for prayer were customary in the ancient Jewish synagogue (cf. Mk 11:25). Therefore, Jesus is not condemning the practice of public prayer, but rather the misuse of it! Because of the statement enter into thy closet some have suggested that all public prayer is wrong. This would he contrary to the rest of New Testament statements about prayer, commandments and restrictions regarding prayer, and examples of prayer meetings (cf. Acts 12:12).
I did not say that Jesus is necessarily condemning prayer done while in the presence of others. Jesus himself prayed in the presence of others.
BiblePath.Com. wrote:The principle here is that the believer should not make a show of his prayer nor of the answers he receives to prayer in such a way as to call unnecessary attention to himself.
And how better to call attention to oneself than to presume to lead them in prayer. While leading in prayer, you have a captive audience (the people you are leading, not God).
BiblePath.Com. wrote:Again, it is the God who sees in secret that rewards us openly. Here the intimate father-child relationship between God and man is clearly emphasized. It is the experience of private devotional prayer that ultimately prepares one to pray effectively in public. Most people who say they cannot pray in public, do not pray effectively in private either!
I see nowhere where this extension from private to public prayer is supported in scripture.
Acts 12:12 wrote:And when he realized this, he went to the house of Mary, the mother of John who was also called Mark, where many were gathered together and were praying.
Yes, no one denies that Jesus and the Christians prayed while together.

But the question for debate, which has not been answered is, "Is there anywhere in the New Testament where public prayer is taught by example or precept?"

By public prayer, I mean the kind of public prayer that is practiced in virtually every church, where one presumes to lead others in their praying. One could easily find examples of people praying in public or semi-public settings.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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Madeline
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Post #8

Post by Madeline »

McCulloch wrote:Yes, no one denies that Jesus and the Christians prayed while together.

But the question for debate, which has not been answered is, "Is there anywhere in the New Testament where public prayer is taught by example or precept?"

By public prayer, I mean the kind of public prayer that is practiced in virtually every church, where one presumes to lead others in their praying. One could easily find examples of people praying in public or semi-public settings.
I don't think so. But as to the public prayer you are referring too, I disagree with this practice. Such is the case with the 'sinners prayer' where the person praying for salvation repeats after the Pastor his words. This is why there are so many false converts to begin with, they were never saved. Just uttering a rote prayer isn't going to bring salvation if one doesn't have saving faith. :hug:

With Love,
Madeline

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Re: Public Prayer

Post #9

Post by G-dspeed »

Confused wrote:
JCRepresentitive wrote:
goat wrote:
McCulloch wrote:One common feature of Christian worship is public prayer. Someone will lead the group in prayer to God.

Jesus taught against public prayer.
Matthew 6 wrote:[Jesus said, ]"When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
"But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.
"And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him. "
Question: Is there anywhere in the New Testament where public prayer is taught by example or precept?
I think that is more along the lines of the motivation of doing prayer, rather than saying that prayer has to be done when no one was around. I don't see it as being totally 'literal' in that sense. I see it as a handsplap against those people who are very open about their apparent religious faith, as a status symbol, rather than honest prayer in worship.
goat is right...

its all about the heart motivation...do you want to be seen by men? or do you want to pray with an ernest heart. God the Father asks that for the sake of an intimate 1on1 relationship, that we take time to visit our prayer closets. in our closets we can be more expressive of ourselves towards God because its a safe enviroment away from eyes who would otherwise not understand and be afraid of such a thing.
but that does not exclude forever the public prayer of gathered beleivers or just the voice of one "crying in the wilderness" of sorts. Prayer is communication to God as a Father and for example you would not only speak to your father at home in a closed room, but freely talk to him when you wish...same thing with God be it aloud or not.
Jesus by example prayed publically all throughout His ministry, even on the cross....Jesus was always talking to God.
as far as "our Father who art in heaven" goes...a vain repition is more of a chant after a while and loses all meaning, becoming a drudgery. imagine if you talked to your earthly father that way? No you dont the way you talk to your parents is casual always changing in topic and discussion. So as it should be with God. the Lords "our Father prayer" is a guide line to intimacey as it first points out some facts about God that may otherwise be overlooked and teaches us to address certain needs above others "daily bread", "forgiving tresspasses", and "lead us not into temptation". More or less Jesus asks by the example of the Lord's prayer that we dont forget those things mentioned there in.
Ok, I see your opinion. And I see Goats opinion. But they are just that- opinions. You are both taking liberties with interpretation. The question asked wasn't what do you think this passage means. It asks if there is any place in the NT that supports open prayer? I can't find one in which there even mentions group prayer or prayer in a church.
the example regarding GROUP PRAYER as one leads many in prayer can be found scriptualy in one word "Amen". After the preacher was done saying the blessingor the prayer or speaking a truth the audiances response if they agreed was to be "amen" meaning "truely" and "faithfully".
however i havent found yet a paticular passage of NT scripture which talks about group prayer in public other than the Lords prayer. but that is not to say it isnt there either in the OT or somewhere else in the NT... i havent given it much time

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Re: Public Prayer

Post #10

Post by McCulloch »

JCRepresentitive wrote:the example regarding GROUP PRAYER as one leads many in prayer can be found scriptualy in one word "Amen". After the preacher was done saying the blessing or the prayer or speaking a truth the audiances [audiences] response if they agreed was to be "amen" meaning "truly" and "faithfully".
I missed the scripture reference to this use of the word "amen".
JCRepresentitive wrote:however i haven't found yet a paticular [particular] passage of NT scripture which talks about group prayer in public other than the Lords prayer. but that is not to say it isn't there either in the OT or somewhere else in the NT... i haven't given it much time
Do have a look. We'll wait. And by the way, the Lord's prayer is not a group prayer as it shown in the Bible.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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