Sin and Intent

Exploring the details of Christianity

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McCulloch
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Sin and Intent

Post #1

Post by McCulloch »

Confused wrote:... Maybe God sees it differently. ... Some of the best intentions pave the road to hell.
Some Christians claim that since God knows everyone's heart, it is the intent to sin that is wrong not the particular acts of sinning.
FiredUp4jesus wrote:Sure, but those are willful acts like white lies or stealing from the rich to give to the poor. Just keep in mind that God is good and a perfect judge. Unlike a human judge He knows everything about you and your son and the circumstances of your life.
Question(s) for debate: Is it possible, according to the Bible, to unintentionally sin? Or must a person intend to sin for it to be truly a sin? Is lack of intent an excuse before God?
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

melikio
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I sin period.

Post #2

Post by melikio »

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?bo ... version=31
Proverbs Ch. 14 may not be a direct answer to your question, but I think it does give any human being some insight into the various "ways" people can fail to meet God's standard (sin). More specifically however, I've failed on one or more points listed there, and certainly did not intend to.

I don't know how I could find an excuse to hand God for being... well... "human".

Also, one of the verses in Prov. Ch.14 talks about making "amends" for sin. And outside of offering an actual sacrifice with a pure heart (as people did in the past), I don't see a better answer than Jesus. And because of Jesus' sacrifice, I believe that access to forgiveness and reconciliation became more readily available and better understood by many.

(I'm speaking from "faith" there; I can't prove it, I just believe it.) O:)

I believe we likely all sin, even without being aware (or even repentant later on); I don't think we are perfect enough, to actually remember the LONG list of possible offenses against God. And by the same token, I think people often forget they've sinned. That is why I take grace as seriously as anything else (as a Christian, or friend, brother/love etc.). I'm about 99.977777777% sure that I fail to meet God's standard most of the time. :)
"It is better to BE more like Jesus and assume to speak less for God." -MA-

topaz
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Post #3

Post by topaz »

Intentional, premeditated sin carries the maximum penalty.
Example :
Lev 24:11 And the Israelitish woman’s son blasphemed the name of the LORD, and cursed. And they brought him unto Moses: (and his mother’s name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri, of the tribe of Dan:) 12 And they put him in ward, that the mind of the LORD might be shewed them. 13 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 14 Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard him lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him.

Unintentional sin – is SIN nonetheless. The following vs states that ignorance of the Law is no excuse. ‘anyone who looks’ … meaning whether or not one knows the Law a sin is a sin.
Example 1
Mt 5:28 But I [Jesus] tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Example 2
Ge 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

The rest of humanity that did not know God died in the flood. So it pays to acquire knowledge.

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Confused
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Post #4

Post by Confused »

topaz wrote:Intentional, premeditated sin carries the maximum penalty.
Example :
Lev 24:11 And the Israelitish woman’s son blasphemed the name of the LORD, and cursed. And they brought him unto Moses: (and his mother’s name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri, of the tribe of Dan:) 12 And they put him in ward, that the mind of the LORD might be shewed them. 13 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 14 Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard him lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him.

Unintentional sin – is SIN nonetheless. The following vs states that ignorance of the Law is no excuse. ‘anyone who looks’ … meaning whether or not one knows the Law a sin is a sin.
Example 1
Mt 5:28 But I [Jesus] tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Example 2
Ge 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

The rest of humanity that did not know God died in the flood. So it pays to acquire knowledge.
So it is your contention that if one commits a sin, even if they don't know it is a sin, they will still be punished? For example, a 2 year old toddler that doesn't know "sin" yet says to mom " cookie?". Mom says "not before dinner". After mom leaves room, toddler sneaks a cookie. Now, toddler chokes on cookie and dies. By your assertion, this toddler is going to hell, right? Because a sin was committed, even though it was in ignorance of the fact it was a sin. I am very glad there are other Christians on this site, because your God and theirs are either two completely different Gods or your interpretation is so far off it borders on being psychotic. SO this congregation stoned this child you speak of???? Yes, psychotic.
What we do for ourselves dies with us,
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.

-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.

-Harvey Fierstein

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led by the spirit
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Post #5

Post by led by the spirit »

Greets all
The proccess begins in the heart/mind as a thought first then it is carried out as an outward act so you could say its a double sin.But sin is sin.And all sin is forgiveable IF you repent.
But if a person has never had knowledge of the Law.Then that person is not under that law,until that person has knowledge of it.But Ignorance is not bliss.Even without this knowledge we still have sense of morality and are surrounded by natural laws that are not as forgiving as the Father is concerning his laws of love. :)

Sin is the transgression of the law/ten commandments.
Its going to be done the Fathers way! Like all forms of religion religion only substitutes for the Fathers way. Go to Burger King if you want to\" have it your way\". Theirs will taste better and your stomach will profit because of it. ;)

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Keef
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Post #6

Post by Keef »

Fortunately, nobody knows!

There are those who would tell you the toddler will go to hell for stealing a cookie.

There are those who would tell you there is no heaven or hell to go to.

There are those who accept the promises and teaching of Jesus, and the forgiveness he obtained for us, who will tell you the toddler will go to heaven.

There are those who accept the promises and teaching of Jesus etc, who will tell you they don't know the answer because it's not theirs to know.

I don't know what heaven's like - I've read lots about it in various books, and all that there is about it in the Bible, and still I don't know the answers to most of the questions I ask. One day I will find out the answers - unless I got it wrong all along and it all ends when I die, in which case I won't care anyway.

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Madeline
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Post #7

Post by Madeline »

Everyones born with a conscience and knows right from wrong when they learn to reason. We are made in God's image, there is no excuse for sin, everyone knows that murder is wrong, their consciences accuses them. There are some who believe that societal influences are the cause of conscience development, not true. EXAMPLE:

Lets say that a man was accused of murdering and raping someone. The defense says that the man was isolated from society all his life from childbirth before committing murder and rape. Do you think that this defense would actually hold up in court? Obviously no! We can't make the same excuse with God either. God will judge all people according to his law which reveals what sin is. And since God has given every person a conscience,. there is no excuse.

Love,
Madeline

melikio
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So many "nuances" that grace must be considered.

Post #8

Post by melikio »

Everyones born with a conscience and knows right from wrong when they learn to reason.

That most human beings are "instilled" with some sense of right/wrong is true. What those rights/wrongs actually are, can/does vary from person-to-person and culture-to-culture.

I do believe that certain (more universal) social and moral norms are commonly regarded, but things are far from black/white in every way.
We are made in God's image, there is no excuse for sin, everyone knows that murder is wrong, their consciences accuses them.

I live here in WESTERN society, where killing has "parameters" of justification which differ from those of other civilizations. The type of "killing" or "murder" that is right/wrong from culture-to-culture, nation-to-nation does differ. Even THAT isn't clearly black/white, and the real world proves what I'm saying. I've even seen "Christians" differ upon when killing a person is/isn't morally acceptable.
There are some who believe that societal influences are the cause of conscience development, not true.

Who taught you that it DOESN'T cause that?
EXAMPLE: Lets say that a man was accused of murdering and raping someone. The defense says that the man was isolated from society all his life from childbirth before committing murder and rape.

Just as God does, human beings must weight EACH case as judiciously as possible. The reason God can enforce ABSOLUTE LAW or RULE, is because He (and He alone) is unimpeachable or without FAULT. He sees perfectly and judges perfectly (according to what they Bible implies of Him). Human beings DO NOT have perfection in any/every way; they just don't. It's relatively EASY to talk about the perfection of a "God", but impossible for us (humans) to even come close to being THAT "perfect".
Do you think that this defense would actually hold up in court?
I find the crime of "rape" to be totally reprehensible; yet in some societies/civilizations it gets hardly any attention at all. :( Still, the most consistent "STANDARD" I have to hold against it, is that it is a sin, because it disregards God's foundational admonishment to LOVE others as we love ourselves. No one WANTS to be controlled, assaulted or abused against their will; no one. Most people who RAPE someone (unless they are absolutely insane or under the influence of some chemical substance), realize that the person they are violently raping is certainly NOT consenting to it. There is little doubt that rape (or sexual assault on a child) is one of the worst acts on the planet, apart from ruthlessly and unlawfully taking the life of another person. And yes, it's true that most cultures understand why such behavior cannot be allowed.
Obviously no! We can't make the same excuse with God either.
We don't know what God is seeing and doing about the "sin" in each person's life. And we don't know what the person who committed the sin is dealing with (internally), only God really knows where that person actually is "spiritually". We (other human beings) can choose to forgive that person (or not), but we don't necessarily know how God is judging/affecting them.
God will judge all people according to his law which reveals what sin is.

He will indeed judge, but we really don't know how He will apply correction or punishment. Some people "imagine" they know, but they really cannot know. Not to say that we must approve of that which we believe is "wrong", but that we must exercise what is most prudent toward them, as God's spirit and Jesus' example of love leads us to. I may THINK that I want every rapist or pedophile put to death, but that isn't necessarily God's will for the individual who might commit such a crime. I feel like ONE STRIKE and your're "OUT", and that's exactly how some people are punished (here and now).

But one thing remains clear to me: Human beings cannot judge other human beings a abslutely as God can/does. He knows hearts, minds, past experiences and influences; he REALLY knows who will/won't change their ways and why that is. We can't do all that where it concerns another human beings (though we often do our best, legally and socially).
And since God has given every person a conscience,. there is no excuse.

As I implied respectfully (above), perceptions of what is/isn't right or wrong will vary between people. As much as I wish others see God's "laws" in the way I do, I realize the best I can do is to LOVE others as Jesus said to. I deal with EVIL or bad people likely every day of my life; people who have possibly done things which are (in my eyes, or perhaps God's) unethical, immoral or "sinful".

But the reality is that despite who these people may be (or how "evil" they may be), I have to accept that I either cannot or should not condemn them (as only He is authorized to do). And while I agree that encouragement or correction are typically good things, there are those who go too far in trying to FORCE people to be good, right or moral.

We cannot read the "conscience" of another person; no matter how much we think we can. Still, there may come a point where for the protection of others in a less-than-perfect-world, mankind within the given confines of various moral sensibilities and laws, will act upon certain actions/behaviors. This isn't always "bad" to do, but carried too far, it can certainly be. For example:

One of my primary contentions with some Christians who are adamantly against "homosexuality", is that they are terribly judgemental and unkind toward people who just happen to BE homosexual. Nevemind that millions of people are gay and are hardly "hedonistic" (or perverted); at least no more than millions of heterosexuals surely are. I think that God sees the possobly good intentions of those who wish to combat "sin"; and just as they literally FALL SHORT of the mark in tending to their own FAULTS, He also realize that many also fail miserably to minister properly to others who are also in "sin".

From a spiritual perspective, I know Jesus is the answer. That is where I apply such energy, in dealing with my sin and those of others. I cannot be as perfect as some expect, and I don't expect to find one single individual who is perfect (sinless). I literally expect them to screw-up (somehow/someway). They may be notorious for it, or not... but I KNOW they WILL miss the mark in this reality more times than I will ever know. That is why faith, hope, love and grace are the SUPERIOR tools to make use of in THIS life.

Jesus could have just KILLED every sinner, and been justified. But LOVE tells me why He didn't do that. As the story goes, there were those who were sinners and did not intend to be "righteous" before God (likely every human in the world), yet he provided a "way" for all to be covered (as a result of His sacrifice).

I've seen enough of people PUSHING their brand/s of religion, Christianity or whatever. That may not be true for others, but it's true for me. If Jesus cannot or will not cover for me, then I'm just plain DOOMED; I'll NEVER BE THAT "GOOD". Not something I'm "proud" of, but it's a reality that I cannot escape; I'm as GUILTY as "sin", and I know it (sometimes).

-Mel-
"It is better to BE more like Jesus and assume to speak less for God." -MA-

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Confused
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Post #9

Post by Confused »

Madeline wrote:Everyones born with a conscience and knows right from wrong when they learn to reason. We are made in God's image, there is no excuse for sin, everyone knows that murder is wrong, their consciences accuses them. There are some who believe that societal influences are the cause of conscience development, not true. EXAMPLE:

Lets say that a man was accused of murdering and raping someone. The defense says that the man was isolated from society all his life from childbirth before committing murder and rape. Do you think that this defense would actually hold up in court? Obviously no! We can't make the same excuse with God either. God will judge all people according to his law which reveals what sin is. And since God has given every person a conscience,. there is no excuse.

Love,
Madeline
How is it you're privy to the fact that every person is born with a conscience? Show me your data. Show me the proof you have to beleive that they are born to know right from wrong, or sin.
In the case of the man accused of murdering and raping someone who had actually been isolated, yes this defense would hold up. He would be not guilty be reasonable mental defect. Why, because what our society view as right and wrong, other societies don't. He has had no influence regardless. He has lived by the laws of survival. Animals mate when the time is best for reproduction: this man, not seeing other humans may likely be replicating what he sees animals do. For murder, same concept applies. The instinct of survival. He has no clue what man resembles, he wasn't raised in society, where would he get a mirror from. Even an image of himself in a stream is likely to be distorted. His first view of man may very well be considered a threat to his survival. His defense is extenutating circumstances. So this covers your example.

Now I would once again request your data as to how you know every person is born with a conscience? I know scientists who would love to get their hands on this proof. They have been debating this for decades, behavioral psychologists, neurbehavioral scientists, the list goes on. Common sense can't be used here. It is very subjective and circumstantial. God himself says that in some cases murder is justified, so is self mutilation, etc... This is all in scripture if you want me to quote, I will, but I am sure you are familiar with it enough to know I speak true.
What we do for ourselves dies with us,
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.

-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.

-Harvey Fierstein

4gold
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Re: Sin and Intent

Post #10

Post by 4gold »

McCulloch wrote:Question(s) for debate: Is it possible, according to the Bible, to unintentionally sin? Or must a person intend to sin for it to be truly a sin? Is lack of intent an excuse before God?
Great debate question!

Yes, I do believe a person can sin unintentionally. Moral culpability is not tied to choice. As far as your last question goes, I have no idea whether or not lack of intent is an excuse before God.

Now, let's go further with the subject of punishment. Under a perfect justice system, would a person who sins unintentionally still be punished? Well, yes. Although I am not a legal scholar, I cannot think of a justice system in the world that does not have laws for third degree murder. There may be one or two, but I think the majority of us agree that intent is not necessary for punishment under a perfect justice system.

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