Sin and Intent

[McCulloch]

... Maybe God sees it differently. ... Some of the best intentions pave the road to hell.

Some Christians claim that since God knows everyone's heart, it is the intent to sin that is wrong not the particular acts of sinning.

Sure, but those are willful acts like white lies or stealing from the rich to give to the poor. Just keep in mind that God is good and a perfect judge. Unlike a human judge He knows everything about you and your son and the circumstances of your life.

Question(s) for debate: Is it possible, according to the Bible, to unintentionally sin? Or must a person intend to sin for it to be truly a sin? Is lack of intent an excuse before God?

[4gold]

First, it wasnt McCulloch who wrote that passage, it would have been me. The second time you have misquoted my posts. Yes, your post was the proverbial straw. Why, because if one is held responsible for a sin they have committed without knowing they have committed it yet, whether it be a child or mentally challenged adult, then you negate a just God. We must also consider that God makes no mistakes, correct? If so, then any person who lacks the ability to distinguish right from wrong (sin) was a person He created and will now fall between the cracks of his creation to be persecuted and condemned to hell, since ignorance of Gods law is no excuse for sin.

I disagree with your premise. The Bible does not comment, as best as I can tell, on the person who "lacks the ability to distinguish right from wrong". As far as I can tell, the Bible only talks about those who sin unintentionally, but does not go into specifics as to what it means by that.

Does it mean all people who sin unintentionally? Does it mean those who should have known better? I don't know. The Bible does not explain further.

But I think you took your argument too far...beyond what the Bible actually says.

[Goat]

So overall, you don't know. One can sin unintentionally, yes. The best part of this question as far as I am concerned is if scripture says anything about intent being considered prior to passing judgment.

Since no perfect justice sysem exists, it is impossible to postulate an answer to this. Under the American system there are mutliple loop holes for this individual: diminished mental capacity just being one of them. But I disagree, intent is needed for punishment. It is one thing to intend to run someone over, it is another thing if someone jumps out in front of you and you hit them. It is one thing if someone is trying to rape you and you push him hard away from you in which he hits his head on the corner of the end table and dies, it is another if you just push him for the heck of it. Intent in mans justice system goes to the very nature of the crime and is considered in any prosecution.

First, let's deal with the Bible:

Leviticus 4:2 - "Say to the Israelites: 'When anyone sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands..."

Leviticus 4:13 - "'If the whole Israelite community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, even though the community is unaware of the matter, they are guilty."

Leviticus 4:22 - " 'When a leader sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the commands of the LORD his God, he is guilty."

Leviticus 4:27 - " 'If a member of the community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, he is guilty."

Leviticus 5:!5 - "When a person commits a violation and sins unintentionally in regard to any of the LORD's holy things, he is to bring to the LORD as a penalty a ram from the flock, one without defect and of the proper value in silver, according to the sanctuary shekel. It is a guilt offering."

Leviticus 5:18 - "He is to bring to the priest as a guilt offering a ram from the flock, one without defect and of the proper value. In this way the priest will make atonement for him for the wrong he has committed unintentionally, and he will be forgiven."

Numbers 15:22-29 - " 'Now if you unintentionally fail to keep any of these commands the LORD gave Moses- any of the LORD's commands to you through him, from the day the LORD gave them and continuing through the generations to come- and if this is done unintentionally without the community being aware of it, then the whole community is to offer a young bull for a burnt offering as an aroma pleasing to the LORD, along with its prescribed grain offering and drink offering, and a male goat for a sin offering. The priest is to make atonement for the whole Israelite community, and they will be forgiven, for it was not intentional and they have brought to the LORD for their wrong an offering made by fire and a sin offering. The whole Israelite community and the aliens living among them will be forgiven, because all the people were involved in the unintentional wrong.
" 'But if just one person sins unintentionally, he must bring a year-old female goat for a sin offering. The priest is to make atonement before the LORD for the one who erred by sinning unintentionally, and when atonement has been made for him, he will be forgiven. One and the same law applies to everyone who sins unintentionally, whether he is a native-born Israelite or an alien. "

Numbers 35:22 - " 'But if without hostility someone suddenly shoves another or throws something at him unintentionally..."

Ezekiel 45:20 - "You are to do the same on the seventh day of the month for anyone who sins unintentionally or through ignorance; so you are to make atonement for the temple."

Seems pretty clear the Bible says you can sin unintentionally. Might just be an Old Testament concept, I'm not sure. I could only find vague references in the New Testament that one could sin beyond one's control.

I'm not sure how this debate goes from here. Is the burden of proof on you to indicate that intentions is necessary for moral culpability, or is the burden of proof upon biblicists to prove that intentions is not necessary for moral culpability?

It all depends.. is the definition for sin that the Tanakah is talking about the same defintion of sin that is generally used by Christians? That makes a big difference.
The term 'Sin' in Hebrew literally means 'Missing the mark' (as not hitting a bullseye). It seems to me that it doesn't have quite the dire consequences as in
Christianity. Everyone makes mistakes, and can sometimes accidently do another harm. In general though, sin doesn't seem to have this heavy duty 'corruption' concept in Judaism as it does in Chrsitianity.

Too bad my quest didn't start with Judaism. So in Judaism is a person with diminished capacity who unintentionally commits a "sin" and doesn't repent because they lack the ability to recognize their sin still as culpable as one who does it with intent and knowledge.

Actually, that is argued about. If you have 3 jews, you get 5 opinions on just about everything. The basic structure of Jewish sin is there are three levels of sin

1) Pesha .. a sin done in direct definence of God
2) Avon A sin of uncontrolable emotion (such as lust)
3) Cheit An unintentional sin (or missing the mark).

According to the Talmud, God has 13 attributes of Mercy..

from Wikipedia

1. God is merciful before someone sins, even though God knows that a person is capable of sin.
2. God is merciful to a sinner even after the person has sinned.
3. God represents the power to be merciful even in areas that a human would not expect or deserve.
4. God is compassionate, and eases the punishment of the guilty.
5. God is gracious even to those who are not deserving.
6. God is slow to anger.
7. God is abundant in kindness.
8. God is the god of truth, thus we can count on God's promises to forgive repentant sinners.
9. God guarantees kindness to future generations, as the deeds of the righteous patriarchs (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) have benefits to all their descendants.
10. God forgives intentional sins if the sinner repents.
11. God forgives a deliberate angering of Him if the sinner repents.
12. God forgives sins that are committed in error.
13. God wipes away the sins from those who repent.

Now, accordign to Reform Judaism, there has to be the ability to make a choice for there to be a sin. A sin might be unintentional, but it must involve the ability to make a choice. If someone is incompentant to make a choice, or unable to make a choice , then they can't 'sin' per say. They might do wrong, but they can't be held responsible. The key to sin is the ability to choose between right and wrong.

[Confused]

Goat
Actually, that is argued about. If you have 3 jews, you get 5 opinions on just about everything. The basic structure of Jewish sin is there are three levels of sin

1) Pesha .. a sin done in direct definence of God
2) Avon A sin of uncontrolable emotion (such as lust)
3) Cheit An unintentional sin (or missing the mark).

According to the Talmud, God has 13 attributes of Mercy..

from Wikipedia

1. God is merciful before someone sins, even though God knows that a person is capable of sin.
2. God is merciful to a sinner even after the person has sinned.
3. God represents the power to be merciful even in areas that a human would not expect or deserve.
4. God is compassionate, and eases the punishment of the guilty.
5. God is gracious even to those who are not deserving.
6. God is slow to anger.
7. God is abundant in kindness.
8. God is the god of truth, thus we can count on God's promises to forgive repentant sinners.
9. God guarantees kindness to future generations, as the deeds of the righteous patriarchs (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) have benefits to all their descendants.
10. God forgives intentional sins if the sinner repents.
11. God forgives a deliberate angering of Him if the sinner repents.
12. God forgives sins that are committed in error.
13. God wipes away the sins from those who repent.

Now, accordign to Reform Judaism, there has to be the ability to make a choice for there to be a sin. A sin might be unintentional, but it must involve the ability to make a choice. If someone is incompentant to make a choice, or unable to make a choice , then they can't 'sin' per say. They might do wrong, but they can't be held responsible. The key to sin is the ability to choose between right and wrong.

[/quote]

You know, it seems to me that god is long overdue for his visit if he is real. I am not saying I look forward to hell or judgment etc.... I am just saying that enough already. I grow weary of this interpretation and that interpretation. Get it over with already or leave us to live our lives as independent humans.

[topaz]

Congratulations on your epiphany! I'm happy to do whatever I can. I am assuming that I did not convince you to reject the possibility of God with my post, but rather my post was the straw that finally broke the camel's back.

I think both your assumptions are wrong. I have been reading her [confused] and let me tell you that I see this coming. Don’t be upset by her words. Her decision for better or worse, will bear upon her and her alone. You did right by revealing many passages that say clearly that unintentional sin is ‘sin’ nonetheless.

Let’s face the truth. We are called to harvest … that which is RIPE to be harvested. Not all the harvest is RIPE, though.

[topaz]

Now, accordign to Reform Judaism, there has to be the ability to make a choice for there to be a sin. A sin might be unintentional, but it must involve the ability to make a choice. If someone is incompentant to make a choice, or unable to make a choice , then they can't 'sin' per say. They might do wrong, but they can't be held responsible. The key to sin is the ability to choose between right and wrong.[/quote]

Didn’t Jesus reject the teachings of the pharisees ? So pls don’t tell me about judaism and their interpretations. The Law states clearly that sin – intentional or unintentional – is SIN and deserves spiritual death. This means a madman who sins cannot use madness as an excuse. A 10yr old who kills has no excuse b/c of his age, etc.

I see many lessons in the flood. In noah’s time, no doubt, there were many other jews who had the knowledge of God but prefer to follow the flesh and these perished in the flood except for noah and his family. So those who perished fail to reach the mark. Excuses like madness, toddlers, children … are simply excuses. They all died, didn’t they ?

The reasoning that toddlers cannot sin bear no support as we see in the flood. Children of unbelieving parents are categorised ‘unbelievers’ until they renounce this stand and accept Christ.

[Goat]

Now, accordign to Reform Judaism, there has to be the ability to make a choice for there to be a sin. A sin might be unintentional, but it must involve the ability to make a choice. If someone is incompentant to make a choice, or unable to make a choice , then they can't 'sin' per say. They might do wrong, but they can't be held responsible. The key to sin is the ability to choose between right and wrong.

Didn’t Jesus reject the teachings of the pharisees ? So pls don’t tell me about judaism and their interpretations. The Law states clearly that sin – intentional or unintentional – is SIN and deserves spiritual death. This means a madman who sins cannot use madness as an excuse. A 10yr old who kills has no excuse b/c of his age, etc.

I see many lessons in the flood. In noah’s time, no doubt, there were many other jews who had the knowledge of God but prefer to follow the flesh and these perished in the flood except for noah and his family. So those who perished fail to reach the mark. Excuses like madness, toddlers, children … are simply excuses. They all died, didn’t they ?

The reasoning that toddlers cannot sin bear no support as we see in the flood. Children of unbelieving parents are categorised ‘unbelievers’ until they renounce this stand and accept Christ.[/quote]

No, from what I see, Jesus didn't reject the Pharsiee's teachings.. he rejected their behavior. Most of the teachings of Jesus ARE the teachings of the Pharisee's. However, the people in the temple were corrupt. Remember, from history, Herod
removed the Sandehedrin totally, and put in his own group that was beholden to Rome.

And, of course, Noah was before Abraham's time, so there were no Jews per say at that point.. You really should read your bible more.

It seems to me that Christianity gets more of their concept from Sin from Saint Augustine than Jesus.

[topaz]

No, from what I see, Jesus didn't reject the Pharsiee's teachings.. he rejected their behavior.

Really ? then why is my belief called Christianity instead of judaism ? Same book two different religions. Why? B/c the interpretations of christianity is DIFFERENT from that of judaism.

Mark 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: 11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. 12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; 13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Most of the teachings of Jesus ARE the teachings of the Pharisee's.

Is that why christians do not circumcise ? Is that why christians eat pork ? Is that why christians worship Jesus Christ but jews deny Him? Is that why christians believe in God the Holy Spirit but the jews have no idea? Excuse me, the teachings of Jesus are FAR from the teachings of judaism.

And, of course, Noah was before Abraham's time, so there were no Jews per say at that point.. You really should read your bible more.

Huh ? … no jews per se at that point ? lol …..wasn’t adam a jew? How about this – adam … enoch … noah /shem … abraham ? Hmm … I wonder who should read ‘more’ before they challenge another.

It seems to me that Christianity gets more of their concept from Sin from Saint Augustine than Jesus.

Really ? what else do you believe ? Who made augustine a ‘saint’? Jesus or man ? Forget judaism, return to Christ.

[Goat]

Goat
Actually, that is argued about. If you have 3 jews, you get 5 opinions on just about everything. The basic structure of Jewish sin is there are three levels of sin

1) Pesha .. a sin done in direct definence of God
2) Avon A sin of uncontrolable emotion (such as lust)
3) Cheit An unintentional sin (or missing the mark).

According to the Talmud, God has 13 attributes of Mercy..

from Wikipedia

1. God is merciful before someone sins, even though God knows that a person is capable of sin.
2. God is merciful to a sinner even after the person has sinned.
3. God represents the power to be merciful even in areas that a human would not expect or deserve.
4. God is compassionate, and eases the punishment of the guilty.
5. God is gracious even to those who are not deserving.
6. God is slow to anger.
7. God is abundant in kindness.
8. God is the god of truth, thus we can count on God's promises to forgive repentant sinners.
9. God guarantees kindness to future generations, as the deeds of the righteous patriarchs (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) have benefits to all their descendants.
10. God forgives intentional sins if the sinner repents.
11. God forgives a deliberate angering of Him if the sinner repents.
12. God forgives sins that are committed in error.
13. God wipes away the sins from those who repent.

Now, accordign to Reform Judaism, there has to be the ability to make a choice for there to be a sin. A sin might be unintentional, but it must involve the ability to make a choice. If someone is incompentant to make a choice, or unable to make a choice , then they can't 'sin' per say. They might do wrong, but they can't be held responsible. The key to sin is the ability to choose between right and wrong.

You know, it seems to me that god is long overdue for his visit if he is real. I am not saying I look forward to hell or judgment etc.... I am just saying that enough already. I grow weary of this interpretation and that interpretation. Get it over with already or leave us to live our lives as independent humans.[/quote]

Since that doesn't seem to be happening anytime soon, I guess we will just have to muddle along the best we can. I tend to think that how people think God judges is more of a reflection of them, rather than God. I certainly hope that God is not Topaz's god. Me, I will take the God I was taught about rather than his God anyday.

As for what is sin,and what is not sin, well, I follow what I follow for living this life, and not worrying about the next life. My beliefs are to help me in this world, and not the next one. I'll find out about the World to Come soon enough (if it indeed exists). If it does exist, I hope there is enough mercy for the turn and burn crowd.
Their rigid attitudes make them seem so unhappy in this life though.

[Goat]

No, from what I see, Jesus didn't reject the Pharsiee's teachings.. he rejected their behavior.

Really ? then why is my belief called Christianity instead of judaism ? Same book two different religions. Why? B/c the interpretations of christianity is DIFFERENT from that of judaism.

Because you are worshipping what is taught ABOUT Jesus, not what Jesus taught.
That is a big difference there. You have elevated the messanger to be the message.

Mark 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: 11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. 12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; 13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Hum.. see. Your own bible agrees with me. The ones in the temple have (like men through out the ages) become corrupt. You seem to be doing the exact same thing
(IMO) to Jesus, yet, you can't see it.

Most of the teachings of Jesus ARE the teachings of the Pharisee's.

Is that why christians do not circumcise ? Is that why christians eat pork ? Is that why christians worship Jesus Christ but jews deny Him? Is that why christians believe in God the Holy Spirit but the jews have no idea? Excuse me, the teachings of Jesus are FAR from the teachings of judaism.

That is not something taught be Jesus. That was something from Paul. Or, don't you know there is a difference between what is attributed to Jesus verses what
is attributed to Paul?? The teachings of Paul are very different from Jesus and Judaism. I think "christianity" should be called "Paulism" actually.

And, of course, Noah was before Abraham's time, so there were no Jews per say at that point.. You really should read your bible more.

Huh ? … no jews per se at that point ? lol …..wasn’t adam a jew? How about this – adam … enoch … noah /shem … abraham ? Hmm … I wonder who should read ‘more’ before they challenge another.

Do read about it. Did not abraham be the one that pushed people away from Idols to worship Yaweh? I guess you just don't understand.

It seems to me that Christianity gets more of their concept from Sin from Saint Augustine than Jesus.

Really ? what else do you believe ? Who made augustine a ‘saint’? Jesus or man ? Forget judaism, return to Christ.

Return to Christ?? I am sorry, but I am not going to abandon the worship of God to worship a man that was defied after his death. As for who made Augustine a "saint", well, Christians did. It doesn't matter if he was made a 'saint' by Christians or not, what matters is they took his ideas about what Sin was. Very very pagan.

[Confused]

Congratulations on your epiphany! I'm happy to do whatever I can. I am assuming that I did not convince you to reject the possibility of God with my post, but rather my post was the straw that finally broke the camel's back.

I think both your assumptions are wrong. I have been reading her [confused] and let me tell you that I see this coming. Don’t be upset by her words. Her decision for better or worse, will bear upon her and her alone. You did right by revealing many passages that say clearly that unintentional sin is ‘sin’ nonetheless.

Let’s face the truth. We are called to harvest … that which is RIPE to be harvested. Not all the harvest is RIPE, though.

Topaz,

I blame no one for my decision. Everyone has a proverbial straw. That is it. Save your hate and spite for someone who asked for your opinon. Over 250 posts ago I tried to get you to help me understand God and the teachings, your repsonse to me was that you didn't have time for those who didn't truly want to learn and that the posts on that particular thread were full of hate and you wanted no part of it. Now you wish to infect Jester on another thread, 4Gold on this, is there no end to your visciousness? Get over yourself. YOu say you are called to harvest, but not all the harvest is ripe. Tell me, did God ask you to seek out the saved or the sinners? Did God ever say it would be easy? Did God tell you that you must be debasing, rude, obnoxious, disrespectful, and donwright hurtful in order to get His word across? You say unintentional sin is sin nonetheless? Have you even been reading this thread??? Do you have any idea what you are talking about. McCulloch and I have both be referring more to those who are mental handicapped and couldn't tell right from wrong. Is it your contention that they are doomed to hell? Don't even bother, it was a rhetorical question. I already know your answer. If God exists and I find Him, I will pray that your heart of ice be melted so that you may know what love is.