Supernatural claims

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antonenus
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Supernatural claims

Post #1

Post by antonenus »

What do people think of miracle claims made by Christians?

I'll give the most recent example I have heard from Herb Larsen:

This guy who was born in China (definitely not Christian) started to have some serious health problems to do with his nose/sinuses. He was sent to America for schooling as the best medical treatment was there (His parent are very well off). His life seems to be falling apart, as he has to have constant antibiotics and frequent surgery, and this is affecting his mental state, making him depressed. Long story short, he accepts Jesus and starts making a serious effort to spend time pursuing him (reading the bible for an hour every morning). This turns his life around, and after a short time (few fortnights maybe) his doctors are astounded that his sinus problem is completely (and miraculously) healed.

I'm sure that you can think of many claims you have heard over the years, as have I.

What do you make of them?

My view:

They can't all be lying. Sure, some (most, all?) claims might be exaggerated, taken out of context (as in natural healing claimed to be supernatural), etc. But I can't deny that due to the vast amount of these claims, there seems to be a reasonable probability that miracles do happen, sometimes.

I don't think these claims really attribute anything to Christianity, as miracle claims come from many religious/superstitious people - however, I have searched for miracle claims, and the vast majority appear to be from Christians. I guess I don't know what to attribute them to - maybe the power of the human mind and the placebo effect? Maybe it's a deity? Maybe even the Christian God? Maybe the programmers of the matrix which we live in messing with us?

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Post #11

Post by ElCodeMonkey »

mwtech wrote: In the church I go to, they teach that God doesn't perform miracles anymore, there are no demons anymore, and there are no gifts of the holy spirit any more. They say all these things ended when Jesus died and the apostles were the last to have spiritual gifts. They say this because of Zechariah 13
"“On that day a fountain will be opened for the dynasty of David and for the people of Jerusalem, a fountain to cleanse them from all their sins and impurity. 2 “And on that day,� says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies, “I will erase idol worship throughout the land, so that even the names of the idols will be forgotten. I will remove from the land both the false prophets and the spirit of impurity that came with them. 3 If anyone continues to prophesy, his own father and mother will tell him, ‘You must die, for you have prophesied lies in the name of the Lord.’ And as he prophesies, his own father and mother will stab him.

The fountain of David being Jesus of course, and impure spirits being demons. Which brings another interesting point. What about all these stories of demonic possession and exorcism. Some can surely be explained by known psychiatric disorders, but some seem really weird and actually supernatural. Maybe just another thing that happens with a medical explanation we just don't know about yet.
Classic example of ignoring the majority of the scripture while referencing the rest. Doesn't seem like anyone has forgotten idols and their names yet. It's also rather odd to mention that those prophesying must die seeing as Jesus was anti-murder. But hey, it speaks a little of [insert point of view here] so why not quote it? :-P.
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Post #12

Post by mwtech »

[Replying to post 11 by ElCodeMonkey]

I don't think it's possible for a Christian to include all of the bible in their beliefs. The bible has so many contradictions that if you didn't ignore all of them you wouldn't be able I believe it anymore.

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Post #13

Post by Cephus »

You never hear about all the people who have problems, don't turn to religion and get healed, or the people who have problems, turn to religion and don't get healed. These are in the likely vast majority of cases. When all you hear are the cases that turn out the way the theists want them to turn out, you get confirmation bias.

Correlation does not mean causation. Maybe your Chinese patient changed brands of toothpaste and that caused his recovery. You just don't know.
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Re: Supernatural claims

Post #14

Post by Princess Luna On The Moon »

[Replying to post 1 by antonenus]
What do people think of miracle claims made by Christians?
Before I get to the rest, nonsense. I'm not above buying into a few supernatural claims. I've had run-ins with what seemed like ghosts in my own life, but I don't go and try to prove it because I can't. Like these stories I see on the internet, I never see any hints at evidence that they're real in the slightest. The most I've seen is personal testimony, which is rather useless. You wouldn't believe that I saw a ghost and that one pushed me out of certain danger just because I told you so. (That never happened, I'm just suggesting a ghostly miracle for an analogy.)
I'll give the most recent example I have heard from Herb Larsen:

This guy who was born in China (definitely not Christian) started to have some serious health problems to do with his nose/sinuses. He was sent to America for schooling as the best medical treatment was there (His parent are very well off). His life seems to be falling apart, as he has to have constant antibiotics and frequent surgery, and this is affecting his mental state, making him depressed. Long story short, he accepts Jesus and starts making a serious effort to spend time pursuing him (reading the bible for an hour every morning). This turns his life around, and after a short time (few fortnights maybe) his doctors are astounded that his sinus problem is completely (and miraculously) healed.
Absolute nonsense. First, America has the best health care? What about Japan, or Sweden? Second, this kind of occurrence isn't new or mysterious. It's already known that the disposition of the brain can affect one's health. If he's depressed and getting worse, suddenly having high spirits could definitely improve his condition. Thirdly, this suggests that god is very selective with who he heals. Instead of helping the many poor people in Africa who are Christians and starving to death, he (god) makes it his miracle of the year to save this random Chinese guy who just decides to be a Christian because 'why not?'
I'm sure that you can think of many claims you have heard over the years, as have I.
Most of the claims I see are the popular internet ones, like the soldier driving the jeep thing without an engine. Then again, some of them are in the form of short stories in things like Keys for Kids, a popular indoctrinating tool.
What do you make of them?


They're all nonsense to me. Disregarding the lack of evidence to support anything they say, they're often completely illogical and use fallacies to get the outcome they want.
My view:

They can't all be lying. Sure, some (most, all?) claims might be exaggerated, taken out of context (as in natural healing claimed to be supernatural), etc. But I can't deny that due to the vast amount of these claims, there seems to be a reasonable probability that miracles do happen, sometimes.

I don't think these claims really attribute anything to Christianity, as miracle claims come from many religious/superstitious people - however, I have searched for miracle claims, and the vast majority appear to be from Christians. I guess I don't know what to attribute them to - maybe the power of the human mind and the placebo effect? Maybe it's a deity? Maybe even the Christian God? Maybe the programmers of the matrix which we live in messing with us?
And maybe some are not lying, but without any reason to believe what they say, why should we? Take ghosts, for example. Like religions, they often have their own television shows where people try to seek them out. Now, whether or not you believe they're real, such shows usually try to collect evidence for them using video, audio, and other scientific devices. So, assuming this evidence is not tampered with in any way, this is evidence that helps support the existence of ghosts. I usually believe it based on ghostly personal experiences, but I know that's not enough to convince anyone else. What I'm not convinced by, even if he/she's not lying, is personal testimony. It's hardly reliable and isn't even a great way to solve a detective case.

In short, some form of captured evidence should always be preferred to, 'Hey, that tumor thing of yours healed. Praise Jesus, it's a miracle!'
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Re: Supernatural claims

Post #15

Post by Cephus »

Princess Luna On The Moon wrote: [Replying to post 1 by antonenus]
What do people think of miracle claims made by Christians?
Before I get to the rest, nonsense. I'm not above buying into a few supernatural claims. I've had run-ins with what seemed like ghosts in my own life, but I don't go and try to prove it because I can't. Like these stories I see on the internet, I never see any hints at evidence that they're real in the slightest. The most I've seen is personal testimony, which is rather useless. You wouldn't believe that I saw a ghost and that one pushed me out of certain danger just because I told you so. (That never happened, I'm just suggesting a ghostly miracle for an analogy.)
But that's still the wrong way to look at experiences. If you can't demonstrate that ghosts exist or that ghosts were responsible, why even think about ghosts at all? That's really the question that people need to ask. If there's no evidence for gods, why even introduce them as a possible solution? It's no different than suggesting that leprechauns and unicorns are responsible for things. Just making something up because you like the idea of it is inherently irrational.
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Re: Supernatural claims

Post #16

Post by Princess Luna On The Moon »

[Replying to post 1 by Cephus]
But that's still the wrong way to look at experiences. If you can't demonstrate that ghosts exist or that ghosts were responsible, why even think about ghosts at all?
You know those ghost shows and all their trials to find ghosts? I've been through a few things like that personally, so I have my own reasons. I can't make anyone else believe it. But, I didn't just pull the 'ghost' idea from nowhere because it sounded cool. Strange noises, uneasy feelings, whispering, etc. Some people have collected evidence for this, but for most it's all personal.

Whenever I hear one of those famous 'god stories,' they're usually just to make people feel happy and supported. There's no real evidence to support what happens in these stories, they're just neat little tales that worked out for the benefit of one or many in order to strike feelings for god.

That's really the question that people need to ask. If there's no evidence for gods, why even introduce them as a possible solution?


I've been asking this same question.
It's no different than suggesting that leprechauns and unicorns are responsible for things. Just making something up because you like the idea of it is inherently irrational.
Irrational, perhaps, but different.

Religions all have their own deities, rules, origin stories, and holy relics. You must worship that specific god or else something bad could happen to you after death. In Christianity or Islam, it's also the believer's job to spread the religion around, by force if necessary.

However, belief in ghosts, or unicorns, or leprechauns are just that- simple beliefs. You don't really hear of people slaughtering villages in the name of the Unicorn god, or because a phantom wrote it on a hospital wall.

I believe in ghosts for personal reasons, but I don't base life decisions on this. If I'm wrong, then nothing else really changes because I thought they were real and they weren't. Were I religious and was wrong, I'd have wasted my life worshiping and loving a complete fantasy instead of enjoying myself.

It may sound idealistic, but there are different levels of our innate sense of irrationality. Some beliefs are considerably more irrational than others.
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Re: Supernatural claims

Post #17

Post by Cephus »

Princess Luna On The Moon wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Cephus]
But that's still the wrong way to look at experiences. If you can't demonstrate that ghosts exist or that ghosts were responsible, why even think about ghosts at all?
You know those ghost shows and all their trials to find ghosts? I've been through a few things like that personally, so I have my own reasons. I can't make anyone else believe it. But, I didn't just pull the 'ghost' idea from nowhere because it sounded cool. Strange noises, uneasy feelings, whispering, etc. Some people have collected evidence for this, but for most it's all personal.

Whenever I hear one of those famous 'god stories,' they're usually just to make people feel happy and supported. There's no real evidence to support what happens in these stories, they're just neat little tales that worked out for the benefit of one or many in order to strike feelings for god.
What you really mean is, they want it to exist, they have an emotional attachment to this particular imaginary thing, therefore they insist that it's real. That doesn't actually make it real or rational. You could have a TV show called "Leprechaun Hunters" or "Searching for Unicorns" and it isn't a better idea. Just because these ideas exist within a particular religious or cultural psyche doesn't make them good ideas.

If there is no way to show that ghosts exist, how can anyone claim to have an experience with one? How do they know? Where did they get their information? These are questions that have to be asked, yet questions that a lot of people just don't want to ask because it creates an uncomfortable position where their emotional comfort level might be challenged.

I think that's a good thing.
That's really the question that people need to ask. If there's no evidence for gods, why even introduce them as a possible solution?


I've been asking this same question.
But theists don't have answers, any more than people who believe in ghosts, Bigfoot and alien abductions do. They have an experience they cannot immediately explain and because they are desperate to explain what happened, they invent this entire mythology out of whole cloth, or they adopt a mythology that's common in their culture, and demand that it must be true because it makes them feel good to think that it's so.

That's not how rational people operate.
It's no different than suggesting that leprechauns and unicorns are responsible for things. Just making something up because you like the idea of it is inherently irrational.
Irrational, perhaps, but different.

Religions all have their own deities, rules, origin stories, and holy relics. You must worship that specific god or else something bad could happen to you after death. In Christianity or Islam, it's also the believer's job to spread the religion around, by force if necessary.

However, belief in ghosts, or unicorns, or leprechauns are just that- simple beliefs. You don't really hear of people slaughtering villages in the name of the Unicorn god, or because a phantom wrote it on a hospital wall.

I believe in ghosts for personal reasons, but I don't base life decisions on this. If I'm wrong, then nothing else really changes because I thought they were real and they weren't. Were I religious and was wrong, I'd have wasted my life worshiping and loving a complete fantasy instead of enjoying myself.

It may sound idealistic, but there are different levels of our innate sense of irrationality. Some beliefs are considerably more irrational than others.
But if there were enough unicorn believers out there, you'd start to develop competing views and then warring factions over the beliefs in unicorns. That's how religions get started. People have irrational fears and those irrational fears get attached to beliefs and those beliefs develop to address the irrational fears. Instead of just recognizing that the fears are irrational to begin with, people seek emotional comfort over those irrational fears, often in ways that are wholly irrational themselves. I have no doubt that if unicorn belief was widespread, it would become a religion of sorts. Unicorns would become an explanation for all kinds of human problems. It's the scarcity of belief that keeps it weak.

I don't think that holding any irrational belief at all is a good idea. Any irrational belief, no matter how mild, is still irrational and if you recognize it for what it is, you have no excuse whatsoever for holding it. It doesn't matter if you're talking about gods or ghosts, unicorns or leprechauns, these are unsupported ideas and any rational mind must reject them or lose any attachment to rationality.
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Re: Supernatural claims

Post #18

Post by Princess Luna On The Moon »

[Replying to post 1 by Cephus]
What you really mean is, they want it to exist, they have an emotional attachment to this particular imaginary thing, therefore they insist that it's real.


For what? Gods, or ghosts?
That doesn't actually make it real or rational. You could have a TV show called "Leprechaun Hunters" or "Searching for Unicorns" and it isn't a better idea. Just because these ideas exist within a particular religious or cultural psyche doesn't make them good ideas.


It's more entertaining than watching Joyce Meyers. At least the ghosts and Unicorns don't make ridiculous morality laws.
If there is no way to show that ghosts exist, how can anyone claim to have an experience with one? How do they know? Where did they get their information?
I can't say all of it is true, but there have been many claims of filmed, photographed, or recorded evidences for ghosts.
These are questions that have to be asked, yet questions that a lot of people just don't want to ask because it creates an uncomfortable position where their emotional comfort level might be challenged.
Or their intelligence.
I think that's a good thing.
Sure, but it's rather off-putting to be made out as an idiot for having a differing opinion.
But theists don't have answers, any more than people who believe in ghosts, Bigfoot and alien abductions do.
What 'answers' do ghost believers need to have?
They have an experience they cannot immediately explain and because they are desperate to explain what happened, they invent this entire mythology out of whole cloth, or they adopt a mythology that's common in their culture, and demand that it must be true because it makes them feel good to think that it's so.
This is quite confusing. Who are you talking about?
That's not how rational people operate.
Yeah, because humans are known for their rationality.
I don't think that holding any irrational belief at all is a good idea.


No kidding?
Any irrational belief, no matter how mild, is still irrational and if you recognize it for what it is, you have no excuse whatsoever for holding it.
Are you talking to me specifically? If so, then stop right there. You don't know why I believe in ghosts. They're pretty much the only thing of that nature I really do believe in. I don't worship them, pray to them, concern myself with them (mostly); I just think that they are real because I've encountered them before. I can't prove it, so it's personal. I don't care to prove it to anyone, nor force them to accept what I believe. And if they don't, no harm. That's a really big difference between being religious and believing in ghosts. (I'm sticking with ghosts to make it easier)
It doesn't matter if you're talking about gods or ghosts, unicorns or leprechauns, these are unsupported ideas and any rational mind must reject them or lose any attachment to rationality.
Hate to break it to you, but anyone who says they're rational is a bloody fool. There are some more rationally minded than others, obviously, but even the most intelligent of our species are victim to the primitive mindset we all have.

You seem to have this internal war in your mind between your Atheistic beliefs and anything you deem irrational. It's just as dangerous as religion, in my opinion, because it can lead to an incredible resistance to differing opinions, and/or a hatred of the people who hold them.
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Re: Supernatural claims

Post #19

Post by Cephus »

Princess Luna On The Moon wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Cephus]
What you really mean is, they want it to exist, they have an emotional attachment to this particular imaginary thing, therefore they insist that it's real.


For what? Gods, or ghosts?
All of it really. There are all kinds of unsupported claims that people make which have no basis in demonstrable reality, they just get an emotional boost out of believing it, therefore they insist that it's so. This is irrational.
That doesn't actually make it real or rational. You could have a TV show called "Leprechaun Hunters" or "Searching for Unicorns" and it isn't a better idea. Just because these ideas exist within a particular religious or cultural psyche doesn't make them good ideas.


It's more entertaining than watching Joyce Meyers. At least the ghosts and Unicorns don't make ridiculous morality laws.
Which doesn't make them any more rational than Joyce Meyers or Pat Robertson or even people like Alex Jones. Just because a belief is less insane than another doesn't make it a not-insane belief.
If there is no way to show that ghosts exist, how can anyone claim to have an experience with one? How do they know? Where did they get their information?
I can't say all of it is true, but there have been many claims of filmed, photographed, or recorded evidences for ghosts.
None of which has actually been demonstrated to actually have been caused by ghosts. There are tons and tons and tons of demonstrated cases where these claims were clear fraud or mistake or misunderstanding. Zero evidence for, lots of evidence against.
These are questions that have to be asked, yet questions that a lot of people just don't want to ask because it creates an uncomfortable position where their emotional comfort level might be challenged.
Or their intelligence.
That's certainly part of it, yes. Lots of people with lower intelligence fall for all kinds of crazy things, from Nigerian Prince scams to faith healing, but people with high intelligence do too. I don't think it's really a stupid people thing, more of a gullible people thing.
I think that's a good thing.
Sure, but it's rather off-putting to be made out as an idiot for having a differing opinion.
It's not about having a different opinion, it's about having an opinion which cannot be validated by the objective evidence. You're trying to turn this into a personal attack when it's a rational evaluation of your beliefs. It is a bad idea, in pretty much every instance, to combine your personal beliefs with your personal self-identity. If believing in ghosts or leprechauns or gods is part and parcel part of who you are, then how can you expect to be able to think about these things critically or rationally?
But theists don't have answers, any more than people who believe in ghosts, Bigfoot and alien abductions do.
What 'answers' do ghost believers need to have?
How you know that such things are factually real, for one, since that's a claim that you make inherently in your belief. There are certainly others, once that major question is answered.
They have an experience they cannot immediately explain and because they are desperate to explain what happened, they invent this entire mythology out of whole cloth, or they adopt a mythology that's common in their culture, and demand that it must be true because it makes them feel good to think that it's so.
This is quite confusing. Who are you talking about?
Anyone who fits the definition, of course.
That's not how rational people operate.
Yeah, because humans are known for their rationality.
And that's a problem. Essentially, you're saying that people are too stupid to be reasoned with and therefore, there's no point in trying to advance science, reason and critical thinking because people are dumb. That's not a good position to take, especially on a debate forum.
Any irrational belief, no matter how mild, is still irrational and if you recognize it for what it is, you have no excuse whatsoever for holding it.
Are you talking to me specifically? If so, then stop right there. You don't know why I believe in ghosts. They're pretty much the only thing of that nature I really do believe in. I don't worship them, pray to them, concern myself with them (mostly); I just think that they are real because I've encountered them before. I can't prove it, so it's personal. I don't care to prove it to anyone, nor force them to accept what I believe. And if they don't, no harm. That's a really big difference between being religious and believing in ghosts. (I'm sticking with ghosts to make it easier)
It really doesn't matter why you believe, only that your beliefs are rational, intellectual and based on factual reality, not emotional coddling. I'm not saying you have to prove anything to anyone, but if you don't, you can't expect to be taken seriously by anyone either. I'm sure you see it around here all the time, theists who complain that people don't respect them, or that try to turn this lack of respect into a personal attack, just because they feel strongly about a belief and want everyone else to follow suit. Your beliefs are only as good as your evidence to back them up. We only need one standard and this is it.

The idea that just because many people are stupid and irrational, that makes it okay is just a foolish position to take.
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