Supernatural claims

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antonenus
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Supernatural claims

Post #1

Post by antonenus »

What do people think of miracle claims made by Christians?

I'll give the most recent example I have heard from Herb Larsen:

This guy who was born in China (definitely not Christian) started to have some serious health problems to do with his nose/sinuses. He was sent to America for schooling as the best medical treatment was there (His parent are very well off). His life seems to be falling apart, as he has to have constant antibiotics and frequent surgery, and this is affecting his mental state, making him depressed. Long story short, he accepts Jesus and starts making a serious effort to spend time pursuing him (reading the bible for an hour every morning). This turns his life around, and after a short time (few fortnights maybe) his doctors are astounded that his sinus problem is completely (and miraculously) healed.

I'm sure that you can think of many claims you have heard over the years, as have I.

What do you make of them?

My view:

They can't all be lying. Sure, some (most, all?) claims might be exaggerated, taken out of context (as in natural healing claimed to be supernatural), etc. But I can't deny that due to the vast amount of these claims, there seems to be a reasonable probability that miracles do happen, sometimes.

I don't think these claims really attribute anything to Christianity, as miracle claims come from many religious/superstitious people - however, I have searched for miracle claims, and the vast majority appear to be from Christians. I guess I don't know what to attribute them to - maybe the power of the human mind and the placebo effect? Maybe it's a deity? Maybe even the Christian God? Maybe the programmers of the matrix which we live in messing with us?

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Molly
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Re: Supernatural claims

Post #2

Post by Molly »

[Replying to post 1 by antonenus]
What do people think of miracle claims made by Christians?
I think of similar miracle claims from other religions, placebo effects, coincidences, psychology (such as confirmation biases), misunderstandings between causation and correlation, and misappropriation of causes. : )
I'll give the most recent example I have heard from Herb Larsen:

This guy who was born in China (definitely not Christian) started to have some serious health problems to do with his nose/sinuses. He was sent to America for schooling as the best medical treatment was there (His parent are very well off). His life seems to be falling apart, as he has to have constant antibiotics and frequent surgery, and this is affecting his mental state, making him depressed. Long story short, he accepts Jesus and starts making a serious effort to spend time pursuing him (reading the bible for an hour every morning). This turns his life around, and after a short time (few fortnights maybe) his doctors are astounded that his sinus problem is completely (and miraculously) healed.
Firstly, I doubt the doctors found his healing "miraculous" unless the doctors themselves said that. "Unlikely," "improbable," "confusing," etc would all be more likely. Most doctors don't move from not knowing the reasons for a medical result to the assumption of divine intervention. Likely Herb was projecting his own feelings onto the doctor's words, which would affect his memory of the conversation.

Secondly, which is more probable:

Herb was horribly ill until he converted to Christianity, and then, after a period of time passed, he was miraculously cured from a painful, but relatively mild condition (hell, it isn't cancer, lupus, post-polio syndrome, ALS, cerebral palsy, etc). Meanwhile, other highly faithful, lifelong Christians are dying at the exact same time (statistically), praying for help, and god is ignoring them in favor of Herb.

OR

Herb got acquired the bug/illness before immigrating to America. It was a virus or a viral variation which only exists in China/Southeast Asia, the region (which is not improbable. Many diseases jump ship from animals to humans in that area, and many parts of China have distinctly different climates, flora, and fauna than the US). The docs in the US tend to be trained to primarily recognize the common illnesses, so his condition would have been misdiagnosed/mistreated during the early stages. Maybe given antibiotics because he tested negative for common and American "uncommon' sinusitis viral causes.
Antibiotics wouldn't have helped because it has a viral cause. He gets worse. Send him to specialists (assuming). Let's assume they took an accurate hx and know he was from China. Unfortunately, if Herb had already been in America for an extended period of time (4+ years, etc), docs often would dismiss viral causes from that region. So -> Chronic misdiagnosis.
Surgeries happen. Anti-inflam meds, surgery removing damaged/affected tissue, sterilizing procedures pre/post surgery, which could damage the virus, contact precautions/isolation rooms, and more all could diminish the virus enough for the body to finally create enough WBCs to overcome the initial virus.
Meanwhile, he has excepted Jesus. Maybe his new faith improves his mood as he feels more comfortable. The decrease in stress and fear can boost the immune system. Through in some placebo effect, and you increase the likelihood of healing.

As a medical professional (Occupational therapist) and as a sibling of a doctor, this is not uncommon. Hell, if you get an "East Coast disease" (like Lyme) and you live on the west coast, you are likely to be misdiagnosed for a while simply because doctors who see a saddle are trained to think "horse" rather than "camel" or "zebra."

ANY naturalistic explanation is more likely than a supernatural one.
But I can't deny that due to the vast amount of these claims, there seems to be a reasonable probability that miracles do happen, sometimes.
I disagree. Often many things look miraculous until one gains enough knowledge on that particular topic/area of expertise. This is why it is important to identify qualified experts in the relevant fields as well as reading peer-reviewed, majority scientific claims/studies/etc.
...however, I have searched for miracle claims, and the vast majority appear to be from Christians.
This is probably due to your geological location. If you lived in Karachi, for example, you would probably exclusively hear miracle claims from Islam. Bombay (Mumba) -> Hinduism. etc


You might find James Randi, Joe Nickell, Sam Harris, and Ben Radford as interesting and useful places to start researching. Most of the above do debunking (more external type of miracles/etc). Sam Harris does philosophy and cog. neuroscience and can speak more about placebo affects, etc.

As for internal miracles (feeling bliss/oneness/etc), check out the God Helmet.

All the best,
Molly

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antonenus
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Re: Supernatural claims

Post #3

Post by antonenus »

Molly:
antonenus:
What do people think of miracle claims made by Christians?
I think of similar miracle claims from other religions, placebo effects, coincidences, psychology (such as confirmation biases), misunderstandings between causation and correlation, and misappropriation of causes. : )
So do I, usually.

Molly:
antonenus:
I'll give the most recent example I have heard from Herb Larsen:

This guy who was born in China (definitely not Christian) started to have some serious health problems to do with his nose/sinuses. He was sent to America for schooling as the best medical treatment was there (His parent are very well off). His life seems to be falling apart, as he has to have constant antibiotics and frequent surgery, and this is affecting his mental state, making him depressed. Long story short, he accepts Jesus and starts making a serious effort to spend time pursuing him (reading the bible for an hour every morning). This turns his life around, and after a short time (few fortnights maybe) his doctors are astounded that his sinus problem is completely (and miraculously) healed.
Firstly, I doubt the doctors found his healing "miraculous" unless the doctors themselves said that. "Unlikely," "improbable," "confusing," etc would all be more likely. Most doctors don't move from not knowing the reasons for a medical result to the assumption of divine intervention. Likely Herb was projecting his own feelings onto the doctor's words, which would affect his memory of the conversation.

Secondly, which is more probable:

Herb was horribly ill until he converted to Christianity, and then, after a period of time passed, he was miraculously cured from a painful, but relatively mild condition (hell, it isn't cancer, lupus, post-polio syndrome, ALS, cerebral palsy, etc). Meanwhile, other highly faithful, lifelong Christians are dying at the exact same time (statistically), praying for help, and god is ignoring them in favor of Herb.

OR

Herb got acquired the bug/illness before immigrating to America. It was a virus or a viral variation which only exists in China/Southeast Asia, the region (which is not improbable. Many diseases jump ship from animals to humans in that area, and many parts of China have distinctly different climates, flora, and fauna than the US). The docs in the US tend to be trained to primarily recognize the common illnesses, so his condition would have been misdiagnosed/mistreated during the early stages. Maybe given antibiotics because he tested negative for common and American "uncommon' sinusitis viral causes.
Antibiotics wouldn't have helped because it has a viral cause. He gets worse. Send him to specialists (assuming). Let's assume they took an accurate hx and know he was from China. Unfortunately, if Herb had already been in America for an extended period of time (4+ years, etc), docs often would dismiss viral causes from that region. So -> Chronic misdiagnosis.
Surgeries happen. Anti-inflam meds, surgery removing damaged/affected tissue, sterilizing procedures pre/post surgery, which could damage the virus, contact precautions/isolation rooms, and more all could diminish the virus enough for the body to finally create enough WBCs to overcome the initial virus.
Meanwhile, he has excepted Jesus. Maybe his new faith improves his mood as he feels more comfortable. The decrease in stress and fear can boost the immune system. Through in some placebo effect, and you increase the likelihood of healing.

As a medical professional (Occupational therapist) and as a sibling of a doctor, this is not uncommon. Hell, if you get an "East Coast disease" (like Lyme) and you live on the west coast, you are likely to be misdiagnosed for a while simply because doctors who see a saddle are trained to think "horse" rather than "camel" or "zebra."

ANY naturalistic explanation is more likely than a supernatural one.
Yes, these are possible. It wasn't Herb either, it was someone he knew, I guess that doesn't matter. I also thought the boost in his emotional state could have been a large factor. I guess due to all the unknown factors it isn't possible to make a conclusion.

Molly:
antonenus:
But I can't deny that due to the vast amount of these claims, there seems to be a reasonable probability that miracles do happen, sometimes.
I disagree. Often many things look miraculous until one gains enough knowledge on that particular topic/area of expertise. This is why it is important to identify qualified experts in the relevant fields as well as reading peer-reviewed, majority scientific claims/studies/etc.
Often. Not all things can be explained. It just seems to me like it would be a bit close-minded to say that 'miracles' don't ever happen, when we don't know for sure. I wouldn't say that there is a God healing people randomly, but we definitely can't explain all things, I guess it would depend on your definition of 'miracle'.

Molly:
antonenus:
...however, I have searched for miracle claims, and the vast majority appear to be from Christians.
This is probably due to your geological location. If you lived in Karachi, for example, you would probably exclusively hear miracle claims from Islam. Bombay (Mumba) -> Hinduism. etc
I was referring to internet searches.

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Re: Supernatural claims

Post #4

Post by Molly »

antonenus wrote: Often. Not all things can be explained. It just seems to me like it would be a bit close-minded to say that 'miracles' don't ever happen, when we don't know for sure. I wouldn't say that there is a God healing people randomly, but we definitely can't explain all things, I guess it would depend on your definition of 'miracle'.
I tend to use Hume's definition of miracle, which could mean that we are just having a semantically misunderstanding. I would agree that there are situations which cannot be explained simply because science is not yet advanced enough to properly or accurately assess them or because the situation is simply too complicated.

antonenus:
I was referring to internet searches.
What ccTLD's did you use? Also, google (and most other search engines with .com s and .co s tend to prefer or only report English results unless you search words in a foreign language. Unless you are both fluent in Arabic/Chinese/etc AND have an international keyboard, it is unlikely that other reports will appear.

The internet can really be a pain sometimes.

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antonenus
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Re: Supernatural claims

Post #5

Post by antonenus »

Molly wrote:
antonenus wrote: Often. Not all things can be explained. It just seems to me like it would be a bit close-minded to say that 'miracles' don't ever happen, when we don't know for sure. I wouldn't say that there is a God healing people randomly, but we definitely can't explain all things, I guess it would depend on your definition of 'miracle'.
I tend to use Hume's definition of miracle, which could mean that we are just having a semantically misunderstanding. I would agree that there are situations which cannot be explained simply because science is not yet advanced enough to properly or accurately assess them or because the situation is simply too complicated.

antonenus:
I was referring to internet searches.
What ccTLD's did you use? Also, google (and most other search engines with .com s and .co s tend to prefer or only report English results unless you search words in a foreign language. Unless you are both fluent in Arabic/Chinese/etc AND have an international keyboard, it is unlikely that other reports will appear.

The internet can really be a pain sometimes.
Ahh, I didn't think of that. Thanks for the input.

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Post #6

Post by Molly »

no problem. :)

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Post #7

Post by mwtech »

One of my husband's relatives frequently posts his miracle stories on Facebook. I find it interesting that he experiences "miracles" so often and I have never experienced one. Nor do I know anyone else who has. My favorites are the time when he fell off a cliff when he was a child and an angel caught him and gently laid him on the rock below without a broken bone, the time his cousin randomly stopped in the middle of the yard because she heard angels singing and then suddenly dropped dead two days later, and when his friend was talking to an angel next to a jukebox in a bar that nobody but her could see.

I'm sure they were miracles of God and not just the delusions of a crazy fanatic :roll:

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Re: Supernatural claims

Post #8

Post by ElCodeMonkey »

[Replying to post 1 by antonenus]

Miracle claims are not all lies, but they are definitely all misled. They think they occurred when they did not or else it was merely a coincidence. There are many people who "come to Christ" and then don't get better. There are many people who don't "come to Christ" who DO get better. The rain falls on the good and evil alike. Coincidences are much more likely to be reported than the non-coincidences though. It was a miracle that someone couldn't find their shoes the day of 9/11 and thus God spared them. Many many others did not receive similar miracles. It seems rather self-centered and rude to expect that the shoe-loser was that much more special to God than all the others thus he was willing to hide shoes for that person and no one else. He could have just hidden the terrorists shoes... Miracles are baloney.
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Re: Supernatural claims

Post #9

Post by Divine Insight »

Molly wrote: Secondly, which is more probable:

Herb was horribly ill until he converted to Christianity, and then, after a period of time passed, he was miraculously cured from a painful, but relatively mild condition (hell, it isn't cancer, lupus, post-polio syndrome, ALS, cerebral palsy, etc). Meanwhile, other highly faithful, lifelong Christians are dying at the exact same time (statistically), praying for help, and god is ignoring them in favor of Herb.
That would be my point as well.

I have never witnessed a "miracle" like this first hand occurring to anyone I personally know. I've only heard about these via hearsay rumors. I've also found that many of those hearsay rumors turned out to actually be lies created by religious propaganda. There are also stories of people who had supposedly turned Christian had great miracles occur in their lives, only to end up later in jail for having committed some horrible crime, etc. I think we need to follow these people through their entire lives before we are too impressed with these kinds of stories.

Finally, as Molly points out, the vast majority of Christians that I actually do now are no experiencing miracles at all. On the contrary they often experience great hardships and illnesses, etc. too.

So my actual first-hand experience has not been that Christians are protected or cured by God in general.

In fact, if you attend any church you'll see people asking for prayer requests all the time for the terrible things that are happening in their lives, and most of the time those prayer requests are not answered. In other words people ask for prayer requests when something in their life is going wrong, often times its because someone they love is ill or whatever. And the sad truth of the matter is that these prayer requests often end up with the congregation is simply attending the funeral of the one prayed for saying things like "God works in mysterious ways", or "It was there time to be with God", etc.

Finally, the scenario given in the OP does not even begin to classify as a "supernatural miracle". The guy was from China, and he had horrible sinus problems. He moves to America and over time his sinus problems clear up.

Sounds to me like he was most likely allergic to something in his original environment and when he moved to America his allergies cleared up. Why attribute that to something supernatural?

God is going to cure his sinus condition whilst allowing millions of other people to suffer continually form far worse conditions?

Even if a God like this did exist it would be a nothing but a big jerk anyway.
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Post #10

Post by mwtech »

In the church I go to, they teach that God doesn't perform miracles anymore, there are no demons anymore, and there are no gifts of the holy spirit any more. They say all these things ended when Jesus died and the apostles were the last to have spiritual gifts. They say this because of Zechariah 13
"“On that day a fountain will be opened for the dynasty of David and for the people of Jerusalem, a fountain to cleanse them from all their sins and impurity. 2 “And on that day,� says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies, “I will erase idol worship throughout the land, so that even the names of the idols will be forgotten. I will remove from the land both the false prophets and the spirit of impurity that came with them. 3 If anyone continues to prophesy, his own father and mother will tell him, ‘You must die, for you have prophesied lies in the name of the Lord.’ And as he prophesies, his own father and mother will stab him.

The fountain of David being Jesus of course, and impure spirits being demons. Which brings another interesting point. What about all these stories of demonic possession and exorcism. Some can surely be explained by known psychiatric disorders, but some seem really weird and actually supernatural. Maybe just another thing that happens with a medical explanation we just don't know about yet.

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