Is Jesus Christ "God"

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Murad
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Is Jesus Christ "God"

Post #1

Post by Murad »

In this debate we will be discussing the foundations of Christendom.
I will be putting forth arguements against the teachings of Christianity, and WinePusher will be apologetic and provide counter-arguements to my claims.

The main topic is: Is Jesus Christ God

There are also sub-topics we will be discussing that relates to the main topic:
The Doctrine of Trinity
The Doctrine of the Divine Sonship of Jesus
The Crucifiction
The Doctrine of Atonement and Original Sin


The Sources used in this debate:
OT & NT (Bible) [Main source for debate]
From my side the Quran
Any verifable evidence that is presented with a source.
Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" without being put to the test?
We have tested those before them, for GOD must distinguish those who are truthful, and He must expose the liars.

(Quran 29:2-3)

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Why Jesus is NOT God
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Murad
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Posts: 1217
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:32 am
Location: Australia - Sydney

Post #2

Post by Murad »

I would like to start off with the Divine Sonship of Jesus

I will provide arguements against the Doctrine and i will expect WinePusher to rebuttal and bring forth counter-arguements/claims.
________________________


In the Bible you should never accept the word 'Son' literally, because many Prophets and we people are called in the Bible, sons and children of God.
(Exodus 4:22) And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn
Here is Jacob(Israel), His firstborn son.

It will be confusing if you read Jeremiah 31:9
(Jeremiah 31:9) They will come with weeping; they will pray as I bring them back. I will lead them beside streams of water on a level path where they will not stumble, because I am Israel's father, and Ephraim is my firstborn son.
Who is now the real firstborn? Israel or Ephraim?

(2 Samuel 7:13-14) He [Solomon] is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men.
Here we also see that Solomon is the Son of God, and God is the Father of Solomon.

Common people can also be children of God; read Deuteronomy 14:1:
Ye are the Children of the Lord your God

Despite all this evidence you will most likely rebuttal with: Jesus is the only Begotten Son.
And you will quote:
(John 3:16) For God loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.
That is blatently untrue.

Long before Jesus was born, God said to David:
(Psalm 2:7) I will decalre the decree: the Lord hath said unto me [David], Thou art my Son; this day have i begotten thee.
Here we see a contradiction, either David is lying, or the author of John is lying?
Jesus cannot be the 'only begotten son' if David is also the 'begotten son'

Another interesting fact is, the english word 'begotten' is related to the sex practices of animals. I would think this is blasphemy to consider Jesus being 'begotten by the Father', so i would personally never use that word as an attribute to Jesus.

Both my position & WinePusher's position in this debate is that Jesus was born of a Virgin, and was created by the "word" of God. We muslims believe Jesus is the word "Be!" in flesh. Similar to Adam and Eve, they were too created from "Be!" but we don't worship Adam & Eve as "God Incarnates" or "Divine Sons of God"; because its illogical and that would conflict with the teachings of Judaism on the perfect oneness of God(I will get to the trinity in a later post)

Jesus never wanted to give the wrong impression on who he was, there is a difference between "Literal" and "Metaphorical". And one should make a clear distinction between the two, like Jesus said:
(Luke 9:20-21)
"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" Peter answered, "The Christ of God."
Jesus strictly warned them not to tell this to anyone.
Jesus who was the expected Messiah, a Prophet, was escalated from a "teacher" to "Son of God", "Lord" and finally God Al-Mighty himself.
(John 3:2) He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."
(John 6:14) After the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus did, they began to say, "Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world."
Jesus is also called prophet in John 7:40, Matthew 21:11, Luke 7:16 and Luke 24:19.
(Acts 9:20) At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God.
You can conclude from here also that early Christians were still using synagogues, but later when Christianity deviated from the original teachings of Jesus, churches were established. Paul, Barnabas and the gentiles were expelled from the synagogues as they were accused of blasphemy and pollution.
(See Acts 13:50, 17:18 and 21:28)
Most likely for preaching verses such as:
(Luke 21:11) "For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord"
(John 1:1) "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"
Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" without being put to the test?
We have tested those before them, for GOD must distinguish those who are truthful, and He must expose the liars.

(Quran 29:2-3)

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Why Jesus is NOT God
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WinePusher

Post #3

Post by WinePusher »

First, let me thank Murad for inviting me to participate in this discussion, it should be interesting.

The question that is being debated is whether or not Jesus is God (divine). I will be affirming the positive, and that Jesus is divine. The event I will largely be focusing on to support my case if the Resurrection, if the resurrection can be proven to be a historical fact it follows that Jesus is divine.

While the Bible will play a large role in this debate, I do not plan to draw on it to support my claim. The resurrection of Jesus Christ can be supported with evidence that is extra-biblical, which I will be presenting this in subsequent posts.

However, one concern I have is that the last H2H debate I was in with Abraxas, our posts got extremely long. It took me several days to construct a single post, so perhaps we could address one point at a time and try not to make our posts extremely long.

Murad
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Post #4

Post by Murad »

WinePusher wrote:First, let me thank Murad for inviting me to participate in this discussion, it should be interesting.

The question that is being debated is whether or not Jesus is God (divine). I will be affirming the positive, and that Jesus is divine. The event I will largely be focusing on to support my case if the Resurrection, if the resurrection can be proven to be a historical fact it follows that Jesus is divine.

While the Bible will play a large role in this debate, I do not plan to draw on it to support my claim. The resurrection of Jesus Christ can be supported with evidence that is extra-biblical, which I will be presenting this in subsequent posts.

However, one concern I have is that the last H2H debate I was in with Abraxas, our posts got extremely long. It took me several days to construct a single post, so perhaps we could address one point at a time and try not to make our posts extremely long.
Very well, i will try to shorten my posts.

Every doctrine relates to one another, the Doctrine of Original Sin directly relates to the resurrection and how Jesus 'atoned' the sins of mankind. So i would like to not only talk about the resurrection, but everything that relates to it. Which includes Jesus being the sacrificed "Begotten Son"

Hence i would like you to provide a counter-arguement regarding my post.
Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" without being put to the test?
We have tested those before them, for GOD must distinguish those who are truthful, and He must expose the liars.

(Quran 29:2-3)

----
Why Jesus is NOT God
---

WinePusher

Post #5

Post by WinePusher »

This is a fine place to begin with, but hopefully it won't be simply a debate over the meaning of the word son.
Murad wrote:In the Bible you should never accept the word 'Son' literally, because many Prophets and we people are called in the Bible, sons and children of God.
Yes, I agree. Technically speaking, it is appropriate for a believer to consider us all sons and daughters of God. So the common label for Jesus Christ as the "Son Of God" is clearly used in a different context.
Murad wrote:Despite all this evidence you will most likely rebuttal with: Jesus is the only Begotten Son.
And you will quote:
(John 3:16) For God loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.
That is blatently untrue.
I will respond to the entirety of your post here, and go on to develop a case of my own.

What you seem to be doing is trying to downplay the divinity of Jesus because many other people are also referred to as the Sons of God. As I said, all of mankind can be considered sons and daughters of God. However, the meanings of the words differ when placed in context. For example:

If I say I love McDonald's, it would carry a different weight then if I said I love my mother.
Murad wrote:Both my position & WinePusher's position in this debate is that Jesus was born of a Virgin, and was created by the "word" of God. We muslims believe Jesus is the word "Be!" in flesh. Similar to Adam and Eve, they were too created from "Be!" but we don't worship Adam & Eve as "God Incarnates" or "Divine Sons of God"; because its illogical and that would conflict with the teachings of Judaism on the perfect oneness of God(I will get to the trinity in a later post).
Here is where I'll lay out my own case, if you feel I've glossed over your points feel free to bring them up again.

It seems mutually contradictory for you (a Muslim) to accept the Virgin Birth of Jesus yet deny the Resurrection and Divinity of Jesus. Both are miracles, and both show that Jesus was born of the divine. So, why do you reject his resurrection from the dead?

But as I said, there are several historical facts that surround the resurrection, and if Murad is going to deny the resurrection he must provide adequate explanation for these facts. I would like to start with the obvious fact, that a man named Jesus Christ lived, preached a message considered heretical by Rome, and was sentenced to death by crucifixtion.

His body was then laid in a tomb by a member of the Jewish Sanhedrin known as Jospeh of Arimathea. The tomb was later discovered empty, and the empty tomb is confirmed by the widespread growth of Christianity throughout the Roman Empire.

So, my question to you is simple. How do you account for the empty tomb?

Murad
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Post #6

Post by Murad »

I will divide your questions and my statements into 2 seperate posts.
(To keep it short like you asked me to)
WinePusher wrote: Yes, I agree. Technically speaking, it is appropriate for a believer to consider us all sons and daughters of God. So the common label for Jesus Christ as the "Son Of God" is clearly used in a different context.
How exactly is the context different?
(John 20:17) Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "
The only difference is that Jesus is considered the "Only Begotten Son" & i have shown in my previous post that David was also the Begotten Son so Jesus cannot be the "Only" one. No matter what perspective you look at it, there is also Adam who was directly created by the word, he is obviously not divine.

WinePusher wrote: I will respond to the entirety of your post here, and go on to develop a case of my own.

What you seem to be doing is trying to downplay the divinity of Jesus because many other people are also referred to as the Sons of God. As I said, all of mankind can be considered sons and daughters of God. However, the meanings of the words differ when placed in context. For example:

If I say I love McDonald's, it would carry a different weight then if I said I love my mother.
Well that is left to interpretation. Try telling a fat kid that :D
The Bible is clear with its words, i don't see it being logical that you assume something to be literal when many parallels are found that prove the contrary.

WinePusher wrote: Here is where I'll lay out my own case, if you feel I've glossed over your points feel free to bring them up again.
Is David the Begotten Son? If so Jesus isn't the only Begotten Son.
Can you define "begotten" from your Christian perspective.
Why arn't Adam or Eve considered to be God Incarnates? They were both directly created by God, on the contrary they had no mother, shouldn't that make them a greater God when you compare them to Jesus?
WinePusher wrote: It seems mutually contradictory for you (a Muslim) to accept the Virgin Birth of Jesus yet deny the Resurrection and Divinity of Jesus.
I fail to see why, please explain why the Virgin Birth directly explains the resurrection and his divinity. Just incase you dont know, we muslims believe Jesus was one of the greatest prophets and messengers in history.

WinePusher wrote: Both are miracles, and both show that Jesus was born of the divine. So, why do you reject his resurrection from the dead?
Many other prophets performed miracles under the authority of God, similar to Jesus. So why are the miracles of Jesus so different when compared to the other prophets? Why do you make a distinction with him and the other 'Sons of God' ?
(John 5:30) "I can do nothing on my own authority; as I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Last edited by Murad on Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" without being put to the test?
We have tested those before them, for GOD must distinguish those who are truthful, and He must expose the liars.

(Quran 29:2-3)

----
Why Jesus is NOT God
---

Murad
Guru
Posts: 1217
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:32 am
Location: Australia - Sydney

Post #7

Post by Murad »

WinePusher wrote: His body was then laid in a tomb by a member of the Jewish Sanhedrin known as Jospeh of Arimathea. The tomb was later discovered empty, and the empty tomb is confirmed by the widespread growth of Christianity throughout the Roman Empire.

So, my question to you is simple. How do you account for the empty tomb?
Here is my Islamic Perspective:
“That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of God";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no certain knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, God raised him up unto the himself; and God is Exalted in Power, Wise.�[Qur'an 4:157–158]
We all agree that nobody saw the moment he was resurrected. They found the sepulchre where Jesus was laid down, empty and made the conclusion that he was resurrected because the disciples and other witnesses saw him alive after the alleged crucifiction. Could it not be possible as the Quran claims, that he did not die on the cross in the first place?

I would like to start off with what Jesus said:
(Matthew 10:24) "The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord."
So im going to take the words of Jesus to be the truth over the words of Paul.

In Matthew 27:46 Jesus says:
"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"
And in Luke 22:42 Jesus says:
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
(This cup is the cup of death)

Jesus' prayer not to die on the cross was accepted by God, according to Luke, Hebrews and James. Then how could he still die on the cross?
(Luke 22:43) "And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him"
(It means that an angel assured him that God would not leave him helpless.)
(Hebrews 5:7) "Who in the days of his flesh, when he [Jesus] had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared.
(Jesus' prayers were heard, which means answered in a positive way)
(James 5:16)"... The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much"
Jesus himself said:
(Matthew 7:7-10)
"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
"Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake?
If all of Jesus' prayers were accepted by God, including not to die on the cross, how could he still die on the cross then?

Also if Jesus died on the cross, his blood would clot and no blood would gush out of his body when his side was pierced. But the Gospel states that blood and water came out:
(John 19:34) "But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water"

Also i would like to bring up something that you most likely over-looked.
When Pharisees asked Jesus for a sign of his true mission he answered:
(Matthew 12:40) "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whales belly, so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Disregard now the time factor, which was also not three days and three nights but one day (Saturday) and two nights (Friday and Saturday)........Was Jonas alive in the belly of the whale?

If Jonas was alive, then Jesus was still alive as he prophesied.
Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" without being put to the test?
We have tested those before them, for GOD must distinguish those who are truthful, and He must expose the liars.

(Quran 29:2-3)

----
Why Jesus is NOT God
---

WinePusher

Post #8

Post by WinePusher »

WinePusher wrote:Yes, I agree. Technically speaking, it is appropriate for a believer to consider us all sons and daughters of God. So the common label for Jesus Christ as the "Son Of God" is clearly used in a different context.
Murad wrote:How exactly is the context different?
Because the term has different meaning when applied to Jesus. When a christian says that Jesus Christ is the son of God, they basically are referring to him as savior.
WinePusher wrote:I will respond to the entirety of your post here, and go on to develop a case of my own.

What you seem to be doing is trying to downplay the divinity of Jesus because many other people are also referred to as the Sons of God. As I said, all of mankind can be considered sons and daughters of God. However, the meanings of the words differ when placed in context. For example:

If I say I love McDonald's, it would carry a different weight then if I said I love my mother.
Murad wrote:Well that is left to interpretation. Try telling a fat kid that :D
The Bible is clear with its words, i don't see it being logical that you assume something to be literal when many parallels are found that prove the contrary.
Are you say that because the Bible refers to other people as the children of God, that Jesus' divinity is diluted? Frankly, the words are used in a different context. But I think it's better to move on to a more substantive topic then semantics.
Murad wrote:Is David the Begotten Son? If so Jesus isn't the only Begotten Son. Can you define "begotten" from your Christian perspective.
Why arn't Adam or Eve considered to be God Incarnates? They were both directly created by God, on the contrary they had no mother, shouldn't that make them a greater God when you compare them to Jesus?
Adam and Eve were human. The incarnation of Jesus refers to his divinity and humanity, Adam and Eve did not have the divinity. Adam and Eve (who probably didn't even exist) were not God, but Jesus is God (in christianity) so the title "son of God" has different meaning. But like I said, this isn't a very productive topic.
WinePusher wrote:It seems mutually [strike]contradictory[/strike] inconsistent for you (a Muslim) to accept the Virgin Birth of Jesus yet deny the Resurrection and Divinity of Jesus.
Murad wrote:I fail to see why, please explain why the Virgin Birth directly explains the resurrection and his divinity. Just incase you dont know, we muslims believe Jesus was one of the greatest prophets and messengers in history.
I corrected my statement above. While you believe Jesus is a great prophet, you don't think he was God incarnate, yes? Well on what grounds do you accept the virgin birth by deny the resurrection, because there is historical support for the resurrection but there is not as much for a virgin birth.
WinePusher wrote:Both are miracles, and both show that Jesus was born of the divine. So, why do you reject his resurrection from the dead?
Murad wrote:Many other prophets performed miracles under the authority of God, similar to Jesus. So why are the miracles of Jesus so different when compared to the other prophets? Why do you make a distinction with him and the other 'Sons of God' ?
True, and we can get into the doctrine of substitutionary atonement here.

The miracles of Jesus are different beause they were performed towards a specific goal, which was to show that he himself was divine. Prophets such as Elijah who brought down fire from heaven were simply demonstrating God's power and might. Jesus performed miracles to "convert" the crowds and fullfill the old testament prophecies about him.

And as any christian would say, Jesus' goal on earth was to save mankind and atone for their sins, mediate between them and God the father.

Murad
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Location: Australia - Sydney

Post #9

Post by Murad »

WinePusher wrote: Because the term has different meaning when applied to Jesus. When a christian says that Jesus Christ is the son of God, they basically are referring to him as savior.
Well the term 'Savior' is thrown around alot in the Bible.
So was Jeho'ahaz (2 KINGS 13:5). It is also used in plural (Nehem 9:27)
So Jeho'ahaz was a 'son of god' and he was also a savior.
I agree it is given a different meaning when referring to Jesus, but when you compare the NT to the OT you will see clear distinction between the two; & authors such as Paul gave the word 'savior' a whole new definition.

WinePusher wrote: Are you say that because the Bible refers to other people as the children of God, that Jesus' divinity is diluted?
Im saying Jesus is no different than we are. Except he was a prophet and messenger.
(John 20:17) Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "
As you can see Jesus has a God like us, and he has a heavenly Father like us. He is blatently making himself equivalent to us!
And if you can proove that humans are God, then i will also agree Jesus is God.

WinePusher wrote: Frankly, the words are used in a different context. But I think it's better to move on to a more substantive topic then semantics.
Ok agree'd, i think i have made my point & i will move on to another aspect.

WinePusher wrote: I corrected my statement above. While you believe Jesus is a great prophet, you don't think he was God incarnate, yes?
Absolutely, the perfect oneness of God is the center-piece of Islam.
WinePusher wrote: Well on what grounds do you accept the virgin birth by deny the resurrection, because there is historical support for the resurrection but there is not as much for a virgin birth.
Please rephrase your sentence, there is no historical evidence to support his resurrection. It is only assumed that because he was not in his tomb & was seen alive, that he was resurrected, this is taught by Paul. No one saw the moment Jesus was resurrected so what evidence could you possibly provide?

WinePusher wrote: The miracles of Jesus are different beause they were performed towards a specific goal, which was to show that he himself was divine.
I disagree, can you quote me passages that show Jesus intended to show his divinity with miracles?
WinePusher wrote: Prophets such as Elijah who brought down fire from heaven were simply demonstrating God's power and might.
That is exactly what Jesus was doing, he was demonstrating Gods power and might.
(John 14:28) "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
Just imagine, if Jesus could raise people from the dead and perform wonderful miracles, what power would the Father have if he is greater?
(John 5:30)By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
God is not under any authority, Jesus is.

Think about it this way, Jesus needed the Father, the Father did not need Jesus. The Father could create another 'Jesus' with another virgin woman. This is the might of al-mighty God.

In Islam we are taught
"Who then hath the least power against God, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every – one that is on the earth? For to God belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For God hath power over all things.�[Qur'an 5:17]
WinePusher wrote: And as any christian would say, Jesus' goal on earth wa
s to save mankind and atone for their sins, mediate between them and God the father.
I see you call the Father 'God the Father'
No where in the Bible is Jesus referred to 'God the Son'
So i don't agree with your use of terminology.
Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" without being put to the test?
We have tested those before them, for GOD must distinguish those who are truthful, and He must expose the liars.

(Quran 29:2-3)

----
Why Jesus is NOT God
---

WinePusher

Post #10

Post by WinePusher »

WinePusher wrote:Are you say that because the Bible refers to other people as the children of God, that Jesus' divinity is diluted?
Murad wrote:Im saying Jesus is no different than we are. Except he was a prophet and messenger.
What evidence (biblical or extra-biblical) is there to support this claim? The meaning of the word "son" is not a substantive proof to support your case, if you think Jesus is no more than a man then the resurrection needs to be debunked. I'll be taking the next few posts to discuss the specifics of the resurrection.
WinePusher wrote:Frankly, the words are used in a different context. But I think it's better to move on to a more substantive topic then semantics.
Murad wrote:Ok agree'd, i think i have made my point & i will move on to another aspect.
Ok then, first I would like your Islamic perspective on the resurrection, is it fact or fiction? Secondly, in order to deny the resurrection you will need to provide a better explanation for the two following facts.

1) The Empty Tomb
2) The Disciples Claim To Have Seen Jesus Risen From The Dead.

From previous threads, you seem to have demonstrated much proficency in biblical studies so I await your rebuttal.
WinePusher wrote:Well on what grounds do you accept the virgin birth by deny the resurrection, because there is historical support for the resurrection but there is not as much for a virgin birth.
Murad wrote:Please rephrase your sentence, there is no historical evidence to support his resurrection. It is only assumed that because he was not in his tomb & was seen alive, that he was resurrected, this is taught by Paul. No one saw the moment Jesus was resurrected so what evidence could you possibly provide?
It is a historical fact that the tomb was empty. If the Romans and the Jewish Sanhedrin wanted to quell the disciples evangelism and preaching, they could have simply produced the body and shwon to all the people that Jesus neveer resurrected.

But they didn't, and many parts of the Roman Empire converted to Christianity. The Tomb was empty, and resurrection of Jesus best explains this fact unless you can provide a rival explanation.
WinePusher wrote:The miracles of Jesus are different beause they were performed towards a specific goal, which was to show that he himself was divine.
Murad wrote:I disagree, can you quote me passages that show Jesus intended to show his divinity with miracles?
Remember when Jesus read from the Isaiah scroll, and it told of what the signs of the Messiah would be: The lame will leap, the deaf will hear, the blind will see, etc. Well, Jesus' miracles demonstrate a fullfillment of this biblical prophecy, thus his miracles were intended to demonstrate his divinity.
WinePusher wrote:And as any christian would say, Jesus' goal on earth was to save mankind and atone for their sins, mediate between them and God the father.
Murad wrote:I see you call the Father 'God the Father'No where in the Bible is Jesus referred to 'God the Son' So i don't agree with your use of terminology.
True, the concept of a triune God is only vaguely alluded in the scriptures, never is it specifically stated.

But I would like to raise one additional topic. I believe it was you who questioned why the Christian God could "die" and suffer a disgraceful death on earth. Is this act beyond God, in your opinion.

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