Would Jesus Support Republican or Democratic Values More?

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ElCodeMonkey
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Would Jesus Support Republican or Democratic Values More?

Post #1

Post by ElCodeMonkey »

I would argue that the Democratic policies focus on the well-being of the poor and the oppressed. As such, I believe Jesus would be more in favor of Democratic values than that of the Republicans which focus more on guns and military while being entirely calloused to the plight of the poor and tend toward discrimination of others not like them.
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Post #71

Post by Elijah John »

[Replying to post 69 by ElCodeMonkey]

Do you honestly think Trump meant all Mexican immigrants are those things? Don't you realize by now that he is very imprecise with his use of the English language? And that he speaks in generalities?

Those of us willing to give him the benefit of the doubt know what he means. It's pretty obvious. (and no, his speech is not full of so called "dog whistles" to us "racists" that is a disgusting accusation from the Left) It's obvious to us he meant "some". That's how I heard it, that's how I remember it, that's how I understood it.

Also, if Bill Clinton used the phrase "illegal alien" (as he did in that speech) instead of the PC "undocumented migrant" in this day and age, I bet he too would be labeled "racist".
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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ElCodeMonkey
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Post #72

Post by ElCodeMonkey »

[Replying to post 70 by Elijah John]

Clinton was specifically referring only to the illegal ones. Trump was not. Trump was also referring to legal ones with his word choice. You can argue he's bad at words all day, which is obvious to most people, but that does not get one a hall pass to say ridiculously over-generalized statements about entire groups of people without being held accountable or without people "misunderstanding" him if indeed he is not racist. And again, Clinton did not call them rapists, Trump did. This is a blanket lie and over-exaggeration of "nearly" all Mexicans with "some" Mexicans (not just illegal immigrants) as decent people from a mere "supposition" of probability. He's saying that the Mexicans in particular are terrible people, "but okay, if you want to catch me on a technicality, I'm sure there are a few good ones here and there that you can pick out." This language demonstrates an extreme bias regarding the group of people. And since the group is an entire race, it is a bias about a race. And a bias about a race is called racism. This is not at all the way Clinton proposed it. He did not say anything bad about the people themselves. He said they are taking jobs that Americans might want. Maybe true, maybe not, but not an attack on the people's morality. He said that the public services they might use is coming from tax-payer dollars and is an inappropriate use of resources which is indeed true and still not a slight on the morality of the people. Clinton in no way said anything bad about Mexicans or any other immigrants EXCEPT that the illegal ones are breaking our laws by the very nature of being illegal. It's in the definition. He did not at all in any other way minimize their value, humanity, ethics, or morals like Trump did.
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Post #73

Post by Elijah John »

[Replying to post 72 by ElCodeMonkey]

Trump said those things in the context of a wall, didn't he? The wall is not meant to bar legal immigrants, only to stem the tide of illegal immigration. That tells me he was referring to illegal immigrants, not legal ones.

I cannot defend Trumps over generalizations, but I do support the policy of the wall, and tightening border security. You and I will have to agree to disagree on whether he meant some, most or all illegal immigrants when he characterized them in such a negative way. His supporters give him the benefit of the doubt assuming he didn't mean "all" or "most". His detractors? They seem to prefer to think the worst of his motives and meanings.

Also, Democrats insist that they too are for border security and controlled immigration. Not convinced. After all, most of them support the incentives that draw people to crash our border. Things such as in-state tuition for illegals, drivers licenses for illegals, sanctuary cities and states, proposed free health care for illegals in NY and CA, birthright citizenship, "touchdown" asylum policies, etc, etc. And if and when they do become citizens, they most often become Democrat voters. The word "ingratiate" comes to mind. Dems are the beneficiaries of such liberal policies and looking the other way.

And now, we hear that there's another caravan on the way. Where does it stop, ECM?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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ElCodeMonkey
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Post #74

Post by ElCodeMonkey »

[Replying to post 73 by Elijah John]

Just because Trump said those things in the context of the wall does not mean he only meant illegal immigrants. He specifically said when Mexico sends their people, they are not sending the best. He did not say the illegals weren't the best. And even then, it is still not even true for the illegals. It is simply derogatory, unfair, unjust, and incorrect statements about the entirety of Mexican citizens crossing our border. And that's why he wants a wall. To make it far harder for these "terrible people" from "getting in" too easily.

Even if I agreed 100% that we need to crack down on illegal immigrants, a wall is not the answer. Walls are very easy to climb over or dig under if they are not being manned or monitored by people. Immigrants often come across legally as well and then simply overstay their welcome. And they come across by plane as well as by foot. Some go to Canada and cross the border from the north. So a wall is ultimately silly even if we want to crack down on immigration. It will help some, but certainly not worth the cost.

The reason the left is for policies that help illegal immigrants is that it is often the case that children are labeled illegal when they had absolutely nothing to do with the choices being made, and because they disagree with the difficulty and complexity of our current system of immigration laws. They simply want to help people.
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Post #75

Post by Elijah John »

ElCodeMonkey wrote:
Welcome back ECM. I hope you had a great vacation in Mexico. Sorry this reply took so long.

ECM WROTE:
I think this is a fundamental difference in our way of thinking. Large-scale decisions cannot be made by taking one anecdotal account. Sure, the one person will not be comforted by being informed that [illegal] immigrants don't "normally" do this. But just because that is the case does not mean we should take her disposition to blame immigrants and/or change policies because of a single incident. Or a few incidents out of thousands or millions. Policies need to use statistics, not feelings and personal vendettas.


OK, should we then apply the same statistical fairness to police officers? Or (as is done in the mainstream media), weave together a few isolated incidents, highlight them, and label the police as systemically "racist"? This is what Elizabeth Warren has done when she called the police "racist from front to back".


ECM WROTE:
Why do we need to be consulted? This is what I don't understand from your perspective. Why should we be consulted?
Because this is ideally, a democracy.

ECM WROTE:
Why should you or I get to choose the race, nationality, or origin of our neighbors any more than we choose what they eat or the music they listen to?
Why make this about race or nationality? This is about legality, process and law and order.

ECM WROTE:
And on what grounds would we be making this decision? We should be able to decide that we don't want Hindi spoken around us? You say "it" happened without consultation. What is "it"? You refer specifically to your ability to know that immigration took place. If all these people were fluent-English white people, you'd never even know immigration took place and you'd have no beef with "it" that happened. So the "it" you're referring to is specifically that people of other colors and languages are now surrounding you and for some reason you don't like it. And why don't you like it? Seeing it and not being fine with seeing it is not at all tied to the murder rates or the harm to the economy. Especially since those numbers aren't in your favor. So I'm not sure what to conclude with this. Why do we need consulted and what exactly are we basing the decision on?
It's not about race. Please, don't do this. It's about law and order, and the ability for us as a nation to assimilate immigrants in an orderly fashion. And not overwhelming the process with touchdown asylum claims. Overwhelming the courts, at taxpayer expense.

And yes, it's about crime. The latest? Wilbur Ernesto Martinez-Guzman is being held and charged with several murders, of seniors in Nevada. Is wide open immigration really worth this price? Is this the price we must pay for the "honor" of hosting many good illegal immigrants? Their "right" to enter the country is more important than keeping our citizens safe? My position is that it is better to keep out illegal immigrants altogether, even if most of them are otherwise good people, if it means we can keep even one piece of human garbage murderer out. Who does he think he is to break and enter our country and slaughter our most vulnerable citizens? Who does the Left think they are to ALLOW it?
Elijah John wrote:What do you think about the exporting or American jobs overseas? Like tech support. Just a phone call away.... to India. Those could be Americans manning those phones, but for some reason businesses find it more profitable to export our jobs. Unfettered capitalism in alliance with globalization, at work.
ECM WROTE:
Well that sounds like a left-wing perspective you hold there :-). Lack of corporate regulation allows them to let the economy guide their decisions. It is far cheaper to hire support in India so that's what they do. We have a global economy now. Those jobs in India are a great support to India. Not so much a great support here. Of course, if those jobs were here, it would support those here who could have the jobs but at the same time increase prices for the rest of us. Hard to say, but it's a bit off-topic of immigration.
Sounds like we are close to agreement on this one.
Elijah John wrote:So you grant that illegal immigrants are not being properly screened for contagious disease. And that is a legitimate concern. So perhaps we can agree then that more controls are needed. Like maybe a wall? Or the end to chain migration? Or the end of the visa lottery? Or the end to birthright citizenship/birth tourism?
ECM WROTE:
No, I didn't say that. Or if I did it was a typo :-p. I said I don't know if they are screened properly but as of now I have yet to hear of any catastrophe surrounding it. So why is there so much fear about something that seems to have no warrant?
Because people are coming here not being properly screened for diseases like tuberculosis. If the Left is not concerned, that is complacency. Why wait for a pandemic to happen if we can take care and caution to see that it doesn't?
Elijah John wrote:And how easy would it be for Middle Eastern terrorists to join a caravan, blend in, and once here, establish a terrorist sleeper cell? Remember, this is a legit concern in this post 9-11 world.
ECM WROTE:
Something can be a legit concern without being something we need to spend every resources on. It's far more of a legit concern that people are dying of heart attacks because of the sugar industry. If you want to save lives, you'd do far more good fighting sugar than you would worrying about terrorists in caravans.
Not an either/or my friend. And speaking of spending money, I really think we are spending more by processing them, putting them on public assistance etc, than it would cost building a border wall. And now, the CA governer Gavin Newsome wants to provide free health care to illegals. Talk about a magnet. As does NY City mayor DeBlasio.
Elijah John wrote:I keep hearing from left wing pundits that walls don't work. The wall is woking in Israel, greatly curtailing terrorism. Could it be that the left fears the wall would work all too well?
ECM WROTE:
The wall only helps for a small portion of illegal immigration. Most immigrants fly and most come in legally and simply overstay their welcome. So all it stops are the relatively few coming by land while wasting resources. You don't suppose all these Indian and Chinese people came by walking from Mexico do you?
Many have, and many have flown to Canada and come in that way. And perhaps we should take another look at flight security and visa overstays. We are too generous as a nation, and people take advantage. And regarding the caravans etc from the South, a wall would slow em down at least. That's what the border patrol wants, to make their job easier. Should we not listen to them?
Elijah John wrote:And how about the enviroment? In Arizona, there are thousands of tons of garbage in the desert, contaminating the soil, harming wildlife, left by illegal immigrants.
ECM WROTE:
Please show me data that shows that illegal immigrants pollute more than a generic population of people. If they do not, then you are again only concerned with population increase rather than immigration.
It's where the pollution occurs. In the desert, on private property of ranch owners in the American southwest. You don't think the ranchers are taking dumps in their own yard, do you?
Elijah John wrote:Yea it's easy to be dismissive of Fox news for painting a negative picture of illegal immigration. But what about CNN and MSNBC, who paint a rosy picture that does not reflect reality? And are hesitant to report any crimes or misbehavior by illegals. Could it be that the truth of the matter, the real picture is somewhere in between what Fox vs CNN/MSNBC would have us believe?
ECM WROTE:
This is simply not true. They do report on things and they do so rather balanced. Take this article for example: https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/26/americas/migrants-border-questions/index.html. They mention the rock throwign, they mention the gas, they mention both sides of the story, and they don't at all say "this is a travesty" or "how dare the US" or "Finally we're protecting our border" or any commentary of the like. Just facts and quotes from both sides.
Sometime they are fair, but many of their pundits (and even hosts like Don Lemon) call pro-strong-border people "racists" and accuse them of resenting the "browning of America".

Elijah John wrote:Instead of attempting to find out just why young people are having trouble affording families, houses, cars, etc, and do somethine to help them, they find it easier to import young people from other countries by any means possible. Including illegal immigration, which would, they would have us believe, strengthens the country. Tell that to stuggling millenials.
ECM WROTE:
I don't think things are that simple and this seems to contradict your other disposition on immigration. How can we be bringing in immigrants to compensate for our lack if indeed immigrants cause more harm than good? Last I knew, we didn't have enough people to fill our engineering needs. Why not? If there are so many struggling millenials, why aren't they taking the engineering jobs? Can't afford college? Neither could I and yet the government managed to help me get loans. The left is all about free college as well so that the millenials CAN get the jobs. So what is the right doing about it? They don't like giving handouts for things like education when education is all the more necessary in today's world. So I'm not sure what your point is here. It might also be worth considering what happens when the baby boomers retire and there aren't nearly as many Gen X and Millenials in the workplace to support them. Immigration to fill their jobs will help sustain them in retirement.
Then why do you think that Gen X'ers are getting married less, and having fewer and fewer children? I still say the remedy is to find out why, instead of the facile solution of importing more immigrants.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

Elijah John
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Post #76

Post by Elijah John »

[Replying to post 74 by ElCodeMonkey]

-Trump speaks in generalities, but the Left is unwilling to give him the benefit of the doubt.

-The border patrol supports Trump's wall. They say it would make their job easier. Should we not listen to them? The wall, would at least slow the illegals down so the patrol could catch them easier.

-The children are another matter. Trump has demonstrated that he is happy to support Daca in the context of other border reforms. And children should not be used as shields or passports by coyotes, or the parents. THEY brought the kids here, or to the border waiting to get in. Sometimes, they have even sent them ahead, unaccompanied. Irresponsible. And a form of blackmail. Putting us on the spot and in an untenable position.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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ElCodeMonkey
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Post #77

Post by ElCodeMonkey »

Elijah John wrote:OK, should we then apply the same statistical fairness to police officers?
Absolutely we should. We're already on the same page here. Keep in mind however, that the reason they do this is not because these isolated incidents make up their position. One event doesn't happen then they make a conclusion. They have a conclusion from all kinds of experiences then they're trying to show their position via these isolated incidents to those who don't understand. It makes for poor statistics, but it can potentially tug some heart strings to get some compassion. Again, I disagree with the way they've done it, and it probably does more harm than good, but that doesn't mean their overall message is wrong just because the y are misrepresenting incidents. The mere fact that they want to have this message out shows an underlying issue to begin with.
Elijah John wrote:ECM WROTE:
Why should you or I get to choose the race, nationality, or origin of our neighbors any more than we choose what they eat or the music they listen to?
Why make this about race or nationality? This is about legality, process and law and order.
Because you said that you see people of other nationalities and that you didn't vote on it. You essentially want to vote on whether or not to be surrounded by other nationalities. At least, that's how it came off. You didn't say you went to get a job at Chilis and found there were no openings because immigrants took them all or that you were replaced picking cherries by cheaper immigrant labor and it sucks because you didn't vote for them to come in. The only complaint when referring to the voting was seeing foreign people. I can, of course, give the benefit of the doubt that this was not the intented message, but it is what it sounded like.
Elijah John wrote:It's not about race. Please, don't do this. It's about law and order, and the ability for us as a nation to assimilate immigrants in an orderly fashion. And not overwhelming the process with touchdown asylum claims. Overwhelming the courts, at taxpayer expense.
But this is where it's confusing because the statistics don't agree. If you say it's about crime and their crime is no worse than our own, then in what way is it about crime? It's either an unfounded complaint which should be corrected when stats are presented or it's a coverup complaint. Some people are obviously covering up while others are simply mistaken.
Elijah John wrote:And yes, it's about crime. The latest? Wilbur Ernesto Martinez-Guzman is being held and charged with several murders, of seniors in Nevada. Is wide open immigration really worth this price?
People in general come with a statistical average of violence and wrongdoing. Immigrants are people, too. If their average is less than our own average, it is statistically better to allow them in. This one case is an anecdote of one person. We have anecdotes of our own. Ted Bundy killed at least 30 people and plausibly estimated at 100. So is it worth the risk to keep Americans here and not have them replaced by immigrants? It simply doesn't make sense as an argument. We have American on American crime that is worse than Immigrant on American crime. Familiar argument to the black on black crime?
Elijah John wrote:Because people are coming here not being properly screened for diseases like tuberculosis. If the Left is not concerned, that is complacency. Why wait for a pandemic to happen if we can take care and caution to see that it doesn't?
I have no data to believe they are not being properly screened. What is the likelihood of an immigrant having tuberculosis, how are we currently screening, and how do we know it's not good enough? There's only so much time and money to spend so we want to ensure it's on the highest priority things. Is tuberculosis high risk?
Elijah John wrote:Not an either/or my friend.
Fair enough, but oddly enough it's not a both. Only one has been chosen. And it's the weaker one.
Elijah John wrote:And speaking of spending money, I really think we are spending more by processing them, putting them on public assistance etc, than it would cost building a border wall. And now, the CA governer Gavin Newsome wants to provide free health care to illegals. Talk about a magnet. As does NY City mayor DeBlasio.
Building a wall keeps out some illegal immigrants. It does not stop immigration all together. The cost of processing will still exist. What are your numbers? I need evidence, not just guesses.
Elijah John wrote:perhaps we should take another look at flight security and visa overstays.
Sure. In short, it sounds like our immigration laws need an overhaul which is why the left is in a tizzy to stand up for the rights of those being harmed by our crappy system. Further, we like the idea of helping those in need if they belong to the human race, not just Americans. But if our only concern about immigration is that they make us uncomfortable and we simply cover up that fear with statements about crime and whatever that simply aren't true, then that's an entirely different situation. And since that's what the left is hearing, false accusations, what else is to assume except racism?
Elijah John wrote:Then why do you think that Gen X'ers are getting married less, and having fewer and fewer children? I still say the remedy is to find out why, instead of the facile solution of importing more immigrants.
Is there a reason they "should" be having more children? Is it a problem to be fixed? Why is it not just a cultural shift? I think the real reason why, however, is because our own people aren't getting educated enough to take the jobs that allow them to support families and our social safety net has provided the benefit of birth control to prevent unwanted pregnancies.
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Post #78

Post by Elijah John »

I haven't gotten to your latest reply yet ECM. And I will grant that Jesus probably would have been an "open borders" kind of guy. But that is not the only Biblical position.

Consider this from Proverbs:

Proverbs 25:28 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
Like a city breached, without walls,
is one who lacks self-control
.

Our nation has been breached. Violated. Broken into.

I think we as a nation are lacking in self-control. Trump is trying to restore it. Walls work.

If you folks (or should I say Leftist open border advocates?) don't understand that or are complacent about the situation, I predict another Trump victory.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

Elijah John
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Post #79

Post by Elijah John »

Racism? I need you to retract that charge or this debate is over. I've already explained the various reasons people want CONTROLLED legal immigration and strong borders.

"Racism" is not one of them.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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ElCodeMonkey
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Post #80

Post by ElCodeMonkey »

Elijah John wrote:
Like a city breached, without walls,
is one who lacks self-control
.

Our nation has been breached. Violated. Broken into.

I think we as a nation are lacking in self-control. Trump is trying to restore it. Walls work.
Allowing people into our country isn't exactly a breech nor does it indicate lack of self-control unless there is a downside to it. The Psalm isn't referring to immigrants, its referring to a hostile people breaking in to conquer. If that is your idea of immigration, then by what metrics do you believe it? If no metrics, then it is again nothing but fear.
Elijah John wrote:If you folks (or should I say Leftist open border advocates?) don't understand that or are complacent about the situation, I predict another Trump victory.
I guess we'll find out. There are a lot more issues than just immigration.
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