How can Christianity be the new covenant?

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postroad
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How can Christianity be the new covenant?

Post #1

Post by postroad »

The two concepts are mutually exclusive.

Jeremiah 32:38-40 New International Version (NIV)

38 They will be my people, and I will be their God. 39 I will give them singleness of heart and action, so that they will always fear me and that all will then go well for them and for their children after them. 40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me.

Compared to.


Micah 7:1-6 New International Version (NIV)

Israel’s Misery
7 What misery is mine!
I am like one who gathers summer fruit
at the gleaning of the vineyard;
there is no cluster of grapes to eat,
none of the early figs that I crave.
2 The faithful have been swept from the land;
not one upright person remains.
Everyone lies in wait to shed blood;
they hunt each other with nets.
3 Both hands are skilled in doing evil;
the ruler demands gifts,
the judge accepts bribes,
the powerful dictate what they desire—
they all conspire together.
4 The best of them is like a brier,
the most upright worse than a thorn hedge.
The day God visits you has come,
the day your watchmen sound the alarm.
Now is the time of your confusion.
5 Do not trust a neighbor;
put no confidence in a friend.
Even with the woman who lies in your embrace
guard the words of your lips.
6 For a son dishonors his father,
a daughter rises up against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
a man’s enemies are the members of his own household.


Jesus claims both.

New International Version (NIV)

19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.�

20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.[a] 21 But the hand of him who is going to betray me is with mine on the table.


Matthew 10:34-36 New International Version (NIV)

34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.

Luke 12:49-51 New International Version (NIV)

Not Peace but Division
49 “I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed! 51 Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division.

Jesus weeps that he can't bring peace to Jerusalem.

Luke 19:41-43 New International Version (NIV)

41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side.

But it was deliberately hidden.

Matthew 13:10-13 New International Version (NIV)

10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?�

11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:

“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.


Acts 4:27-28 New International Version (NIV)

27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.

Romans 11:6-8 New International Version (NIV)

6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written:

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.�l


How can this be when God promised to reverse the condition in the new covenant?

Jeremiah 24:6-7 New International Version (NIV)

6 My eyes will watch over them for their good, and I will bring them back to this land. I will build them up and not tear them down; I will plant them and not uproot them. 7 I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the Lord. They will be my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with all their heart.

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Post #21

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to post 17 by postroad]

Also Jer and Ezekiel's prophecies were during the calamity of Babylon not after. So it seems unlikely it was failed propaganda by Babylonians. Also, as usual, Israel didnt listen to them anyway.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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postroad
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Post #22

Post by postroad »

[Replying to post 21 by Wootah]

If Israel didn't listen then it wasn't them that failed it God himself who failed. The books have him speaking of future events as certainties guaranteed by his own intervention and actions.

Why would he declare events as certainties insured by himself that he in fact didn't expect or wish to fulfill?

And what do you base your confidence of future fulfillment of your expectations with his past record of failure?

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Post #23

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to post 22 by postroad]

Where does this notion come from? If I dont follow instructions to bake a cake how can that be the instructions fault?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Post #24

Post by postroad »

[Replying to post 23 by Wootah]

Would you need to follow instructions if it was part of your nature? Do you need instructions in order to breath or have a heart beat?

Isn't the following text a promise to make following the Law a genetically transmitted trait?

Deuteronomy 30:2-6 New International Version (NIV)

2 and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, 3 then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes[a] and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. 4 Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. 5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors. 6 The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

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Post #25

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to post 24 by postroad]

Surely the idea of God circumcising the heart implies an action by God needs to occur and that no one is born circumcised.

How we get hearts of flesh is the mystery for you I presume and explains why Christianity is the new covenant for me. How do you think Israelites get from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Post #26

Post by postroad »

[Replying to post 25 by Wootah]

Are you suggesting that a never ending future of blessings based on a never ending generations of perfect obedience isn't a supernatural event?

That this would be possible for Israel to accomplish on their own.

How many 'I will" is God required to say before it can be believed?

I suppose it wouldn't be any harder for him than the deliberate hardening of national Israel in all their generations that the NT declares God performed?

Christianity claims that they have received this circumcision and yet no evidence of it exists. They merely use Christ as a scapegoat for the sins they continue to commit.

And this while condemning the Jews for failing to keep the Law perfectly.


Colossians 2:10-12 New International Version (NIV)

10 and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority. 11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh[a] was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Hebrews 10:26-30 New International Version (NIV)

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,�[a] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.�

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Post #27

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to post 26 by postroad]

There isnt evidence of one generation being 90% obedient let alone perfect obedience. How do you hold up that claim?

It's evident Christians are circumcised. Havent you noticed world history since Jesus?

But more than that talk to a Christian and if they are you will see their heart circumcised everytime they talk about God and what he did on the cross. I'm heart broken by it.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Post #28

Post by postroad »

[Replying to post 27 by Wootah]

Why be heart broken if it was Gods eternal plan which was deliberately hidden from the Jews?

And if you think Christianity has influenced world events by remaining true to its principles then you are mistaken. In fact it wouldn't have survived if it hadn't compromised itself completely. So whatever it is you are pointing at a proof is actually proof of the abject failure of Christian precepts.



1 Corinthians 2:7-8 New International Version (NIV)

7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.


Acts 4:27-28 New International Version (NIV)

27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.

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Post #29

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to post 28 by postroad]

Do you know how absurd it is that the best seat in a movie theatre or the best parking spot is for a disabled person. That is the effect of Christ down to the minutia, let alone the big things that I am sure you can rattle off if you want to.

What evidence do you have of this claim: Are you suggesting that a never ending future of blessings based on a never ending generations of perfect obedience isn't a supernatural event?
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Post #30

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to post 29 by Wootah]

You will know you have a heart of flesh when you understand The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant in Matthew 18 21:35.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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