How can Christianity be the new covenant?

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postroad
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How can Christianity be the new covenant?

Post #1

Post by postroad »

The two concepts are mutually exclusive.

Jeremiah 32:38-40 New International Version (NIV)

38 They will be my people, and I will be their God. 39 I will give them singleness of heart and action, so that they will always fear me and that all will then go well for them and for their children after them. 40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me.

Compared to.


Micah 7:1-6 New International Version (NIV)

Israel’s Misery
7 What misery is mine!
I am like one who gathers summer fruit
at the gleaning of the vineyard;
there is no cluster of grapes to eat,
none of the early figs that I crave.
2 The faithful have been swept from the land;
not one upright person remains.
Everyone lies in wait to shed blood;
they hunt each other with nets.
3 Both hands are skilled in doing evil;
the ruler demands gifts,
the judge accepts bribes,
the powerful dictate what they desire—
they all conspire together.
4 The best of them is like a brier,
the most upright worse than a thorn hedge.
The day God visits you has come,
the day your watchmen sound the alarm.
Now is the time of your confusion.
5 Do not trust a neighbor;
put no confidence in a friend.
Even with the woman who lies in your embrace
guard the words of your lips.
6 For a son dishonors his father,
a daughter rises up against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
a man’s enemies are the members of his own household.


Jesus claims both.

New International Version (NIV)

19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.�

20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.[a] 21 But the hand of him who is going to betray me is with mine on the table.


Matthew 10:34-36 New International Version (NIV)

34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.

Luke 12:49-51 New International Version (NIV)

Not Peace but Division
49 “I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed! 51 Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division.

Jesus weeps that he can't bring peace to Jerusalem.

Luke 19:41-43 New International Version (NIV)

41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side.

But it was deliberately hidden.

Matthew 13:10-13 New International Version (NIV)

10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?�

11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:

“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.


Acts 4:27-28 New International Version (NIV)

27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.

Romans 11:6-8 New International Version (NIV)

6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written:

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.�l


How can this be when God promised to reverse the condition in the new covenant?

Jeremiah 24:6-7 New International Version (NIV)

6 My eyes will watch over them for their good, and I will bring them back to this land. I will build them up and not tear them down; I will plant them and not uproot them. 7 I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the Lord. They will be my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with all their heart.

postroad
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Post #31

Post by postroad »

[Replying to post 30 by Wootah]

you wanted a debate about a contradiction. As far as I can tell you haven't reconciled the contradiction textually. When will you be doing that?

Wootah
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Post #32

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to post 31 by postroad]

I'm not seeing any sustained contradiction and tbh im trying to work out your point.

What evidence do you have of this claim: Are you suggesting that a never ending future of blessings based on a never ending generations of perfect obedience isn't a supernatural event?

You havent even proposed an alternate new covenant or anything to counter Christianity as the new covenant. Have you?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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postroad
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Post #33

Post by postroad »

[Replying to post 32 by Wootah]

I'm wondering what the Jews are waiting for? A few alternatives exist. It could all be a pious fraud. Perhaps Christianity is a test regarding the Jewish faithfulness to the Law. Or perhaps God is a deceiver who wishes to see people in conflict.

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Post #34

Post by Wootah »

postroad wrote: [Replying to post 32 by Wootah]

I'm wondering what the Jews are waiting for? A few alternatives exist. It could all be a pious fraud. Perhaps Christianity is a test regarding the Jewish faithfulness to the Law. Or perhaps God is a deceiver who wishes to see people in conflict.
That's interesting but irrelevant. It's fairly standard to believe they are waiting for the Messiah.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Post #35

Post by Wootah »

postroad wrote: [Replying to post 23 by Wootah]

Would you need to follow instructions if it was part of your nature? Do you need instructions in order to breath or have a heart beat?

Isn't the following text a promise to make following the Law a genetically transmitted trait?

Deuteronomy 30:2-6 New International Version (NIV)

2 and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, 3 then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes[a] and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. 4 Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. 5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors. 6 The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.
Do you see any evidence in there that anything will be genetically transmitted? The whole chapter 32 even says when you do these things and in line 11 it says the things God commands are not too difficult for you to do.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Post #36

Post by postroad »

[Replying to post 35 by Wootah]

Isn't it a basic doctrine of Christianity that the Law was in fact impossible to be kept perfectly by mankind.

For crying out loud, Christians have been released from all of its numerous peculiarities and they cry that sanctification simply isn't possible in the flesh. Even with the help of the Spirit.

I suppose God must have been lying?

Deuteronomy 30:11-14 New International Version (NIV)

The Offer of Life or Death
11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?� 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?� 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

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Post #37

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to post 36 by postroad]

The law is very obeyable. Christians believe that. But no one obeys it perfectly. Christians believe that as well. It's simply not mutually exclusive.

If you read the chapter again there is a puzzle there. How can one turn to God with all their heart and soul as God asks in verse 2 when in verse 6 it says:

The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

Actually even verse 2 makes me question whether it is possible for man to return without God willing it. And when you turn back can be read as when i cause you to turn back.

So is it really possible for man to obey perfectly or do we need God to do something?

Determinism and free will linger all over this chapter. The hint of Jesus seems like it is all over the OT.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Post #38

Post by postroad »

[Replying to post 37 by Wootah]

Seems that God promised to bind them to the Law at some point. You refute that claim based on free will.

I suppose they could have their free will if their nature was changed to an overwhelming genetic desire to obey instead of that which Paul described.

And if as Paul claims a genetic disposition to disobedience exists in the human race apart from which we are unable to obey "free will" or not then God could change that inclination to make it obedient instead of turfing the commandments he described as perfect.


https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV


Indeed that is exactly what was promised.

Ezekiel 11:19-20 New International Version (NIV)

19 I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh. 20 Then they will follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. They will be my people, and I will be their God.


Ezekiel 36:26-28 New International Version (NIV)

26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God.


Jeremiah 32:38-40 New International Version (NIV)

38 They will be my people, and I will be their God. 39 I will give them singleness of heart and action, so that they will always fear me and that all will then go well for them and for their children after them. 40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me.

God promised to at some point give them the hearts that would allow them to accomplish that which was wished for here.

Deuteronomy 5:29
Oh, that their hearts would be inclined to fear me and keep all my commands always, so that it might go well with them and their children forever!

Besides God doesn't need any sacrifice in order to forgive sin. He is able to do so at his discretion.


Jeremiah 50:20
In those days, at that time,� declares the Lord, “search will be made for Israel’s guilt, but there will be none, and for the sins of Judah, but none will be found, for I will forgive the remnant I spare.

Micah 7:18
Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy.

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Post #39

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to post 38 by postroad]

Jeremiah 50:20
In those days, at that time,� declares the Lord, “search will be made for Israel’s guilt, but there will be none, and for the sins of Judah, but none will be found, for I will forgive the remnant I spare.

You could say that after God forgives them then you will not be able to find any guit or sin.

This is how i know i have a heart of flesh. God does not see my sin in a final judgement sense because Jesus paid for it and that fact whem i ponder it keeps breaking my heart of stone.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Post #40

Post by postroad »

[Replying to post 39 by Wootah]

You could say anything you wish. I'm debating using textual support though.

In fact your guilty conscience might be proof that you aren't saved.

Hebrews 10:2
Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins.

Hebrews 10:22
let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.

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